Are all EV charge point installers this bad?

[catdog1121]

So I am a fully qualified spark with my own company, however I also have a few properties I rent out. One of my tenants asked if they can have an EV charge point put on the house paid for by his company, being the good landlord I said of course no problem just let me know when they are there so I can check they are going to do it right.... So the company employed was Pod point...

Guy turns up, first thing I ask is Do you know its a looped supply? He looks at it and says, "umm well I don't think it is", I said "No I know its a looped supply, I have checked with next door and although there is only one cable coming in here there is two in the neighbours", I then showed him WPD map of the property showing the power cable, I had checked with WPD and they can give permission to install one and unloop it at a later date. He got a bit flustered and said he might not be able to install it then (So he shouldn't install it but was going to anyway), I asked if the paperwork had been sent to WPD, and fair enough he didnt know and would check before installing.

I then ask him what his plan is, he wanted to split the tail and fit a new CU in the meter cupboard, I told him the meter cupboard was for electricity supplier, you can put a meter in there, an isolator, hell even henly blocks I think is ok, but not a consumer unit, he then tried to tell me E-on had given them permission, I said what about WPD and what if the tenant changes supplier and quoted from the efixx video the response from the ENA who basically said no, he insisted they have fitted loads and they are allowed, I then said well your not fitting it there, but gave him another option which was feed off the current CU a 40A non rcd circuit and put their new CU next to the existing one from that, to which he said they can't really touch existing installations, unless it is easier and has type A RCD's. I said its ok, I have the correct bus bars and a 40A mcb for that CU and ill even do the work, he then said this was ok..

I move on to ask him will the new CU come with an SPD? (Current install does not have an SPD and although I know I am being picky a new circuit I was told by both NAPIT and IET you have to fit an SPD), he said nope we don't bother fitting SPD's, he had checked before and higher ups had said if you want an SPD then you need to find a local sparkie to fit one. I said ok ill take it up with pod point, the guy then waited for ages and could not get hold of his company to find out if it was ok to install so I phoned my contact in WPD who checked and said there was no paperwork for the install so they had not gained permission.. So the install got delayed.

I had a look online and pod points install instructions suggest they you should have an SPD at the source of the installation, I phoned up and they confirmed they were installing to BS7671 amendment 2 so I quoted regulation 443.4.1 which states that protection for transient voltage for indirect lighting strike shall be provided unless the owner refuses, and stated it even said in their own literature that they recommend one is fitted so why are they not installing, the result I got to was they install it to their standards only and its their interpretation...

I know I am being a bit pedantic as the current installation does not have an SPD but I plan to change the consumer unit in the property have some renovations when the current tenant moves out, and it might even be a complete rewire and I might move the current CU, but the EV charger CU I might just split the tails to keep that in the current position so an SPD would be a good idea...

I am appalled by pod point, first the guy almost installed on a looped supply without first checking, second they want to install in the meter cupboard and thirdly they don't fit SPD's despite them recommending them and it now being a mandatory device, how do they get away with it? I have made a complaint to the NICEIC although I doubt they will do much, failing that I might let them install it then do an EICR afterwards as the guy didnt fill me with confidence when I asked him to provide me with the EIC and building compliance certificate as its a rented property its an EIC will cover that part for 5yrs, he just said "Oh its ok ill test it". I think if it doesnt have an SPD I will deem it unsatisfactory and disconnect it and send the report to the tenants company for them to engage pod point to come and rectify the situation.

Years ago I wanted to get into the EV install market but it was after looking at pod points prices where it was only about £200 more than the unit to have it installed I worked out the costs and the materials were close to that alone so I would make no money, now I know why they can install so cheaply..

Would be interested in what others think... (Have to admit I was a bit ranty, for the average joe they don't have a clue).

 

[suffolkspark]

So I am a fully qualified spark with my own company, however I also have a few properties I rent out. One of my tenants asked if they can have an EV charge point put on the house paid for by his company, being the good landlord I said of course no problem just let me know when they are there so I can check they are going to do it right.... So the company employed was Pod point...

Guy turns up, first thing I ask is Do you know its a looped supply? He looks at it and says, "umm well I don't think it is", I said "No I know its a looped supply, I have checked with next door and although there is only one cable coming in here there is two in the neighbours", I then showed him WPD map of the property showing the power cable, I had checked with WPD and they can give permission to install one and unloop it at a later date. He got a bit flustered and said he might not be able to install it then (So he shouldn't install it but was going to anyway), I asked if the paperwork had been sent to WPD, and fair enough he didnt know and would check before installing.

I then ask him what his plan is, he wanted to split the tail and fit a new CU in the meter cupboard, I told him the meter cupboard was for electricity supplier, you can put a meter in there, an isolator, hell even henly blocks I think is ok, but not a consumer unit, he then tried to tell me E-on had given them permission, I said what about WPD and what if the tenant changes supplier and quoted from the efixx video the response from the ENA who basically said no, he insisted they have fitted loads and they are allowed, I then said well your not fitting it there, but gave him another option which was feed off the current CU a 40A non rcd circuit and put their new CU next to the existing one from that, to which he said they can't really touch existing installations, unless it is easier and has type A RCD's. I said its ok, I have the correct bus bars and a 40A mcb for that CU and ill even do the work, he then said this was ok..

I move on to ask him will the new CU come with an SPD? (Current install does not have an SPD and although I know I am being picky a new circuit I was told by both NAPIT and IET you have to fit an SPD), he said nope we don't bother fitting SPD's, he had checked before and higher ups had said if you want an SPD then you need to find a local sparkie to fit one. I said ok ill take it up with pod point, the guy then waited for ages and could not get hold of his company to find out if it was ok to install so I phoned my contact in WPD who checked and said there was no paperwork for the install so they had not gained permission.. So the install got delayed.

I had a look online and pod points install instructions suggest they you should have an SPD at the source of the installation, I phoned up and they confirmed they were installing to BS7671 amendment 2 so I quoted regulation 443.4.1 which states that protection for transient voltage for indirect lighting strike shall be provided unless the owner refuses, and stated it even said in their own literature that they recommend one is fitted so why are they not installing, the result I got to was they install it to their standards only and its their interpretation...

I know I am being a bit pedantic as the current installation does not have an SPD but I plan to change the consumer unit in the property have some renovations when the current tenant moves out, and it might even be a complete rewire and I might move the current CU, but the EV charger CU I might just split the tails to keep that in the current position so an SPD would be a good idea...

I am appalled by pod point, first the guy almost installed on a looped supply without first checking, second they want to install in the meter cupboard and thirdly they don't fit SPD's despite them recommending them and it now being a mandatory device, how do they get away with it? I have made a complaint to the NICEIC although I doubt they will do much, failing that I might let them install it then do an EICR afterwards as the guy didnt fill me with confidence when I asked him to provide me with the EIC and building compliance certificate as its a rented property its an EIC will cover that part for 5yrs, he just said "Oh its ok ill test it". I think if it doesnt have an SPD I will deem it unsatisfactory and disconnect it and send the report to the tenants company for them to engage pod point to come and rectify the situation.

Years ago I wanted to get into the EV install market but it was after looking at pod points prices where it was only about £200 more than the unit to have it installed I worked out the costs and the materials were close to that alone so I would make no money, now I know why they can install so cheaply..

Would be interested in what others think... (Have to admit I was a bit ranty, for the average joe they don't have a clue).

I've only come across 2 installs by pod point, but both were. On one they had installed a 4 mod enclosure with el cheapo dp rcbo in for a charger, (despite the circuit coming from a local consumer unit with type A rcd upfront anyway) no blanks fitted so you could get your mits in it, and loose on the wall of a car port.

 

[cliffed]

So I am a fully qualified spark with my own company, however I also have a few properties I rent out. One of my tenants asked if they can have an EV charge point put on the house paid for by his company, being the good landlord I said of course no problem just let me know when they are there so I can check they are going to do it right.... So the company employed was Pod point...

Guy turns up, first thing I ask is Do you know its a looped supply? He looks at it and says, "umm well I don't think it is", I said "No I know its a looped supply, I have checked with next door and although there is only one cable coming in here there is two in the neighbours", I then showed him WPD map of the property showing the power cable, I had checked with WPD and they can give permission to install one and unloop it at a later date. He got a bit flustered and said he might not be able to install it then (So he shouldn't install it but was going to anyway), I asked if the paperwork had been sent to WPD, and fair enough he didnt know and would check before installing.

I then ask him what his plan is, he wanted to split the tail and fit a new CU in the meter cupboard, I told him the meter cupboard was for electricity supplier, you can put a meter in there, an isolator, hell even henly blocks I think is ok, but not a consumer unit, he then tried to tell me E-on had given them permission, I said what about WPD and what if the tenant changes supplier and quoted from the efixx video the response from the ENA who basically said no, he insisted they have fitted loads and they are allowed, I then said well your not fitting it there, but gave him another option which was feed off the current CU a 40A non rcd circuit and put their new CU next to the existing one from that, to which he said they can't really touch existing installations, unless it is easier and has type A RCD's. I said its ok, I have the correct bus bars and a 40A mcb for that CU and ill even do the work, he then said this was ok..

I move on to ask him will the new CU come with an SPD? (Current install does not have an SPD and although I know I am being picky a new circuit I was told by both NAPIT and IET you have to fit an SPD), he said nope we don't bother fitting SPD's, he had checked before and higher ups had said if you want an SPD then you need to find a local sparkie to fit one. I said ok ill take it up with pod point, the guy then waited for ages and could not get hold of his company to find out if it was ok to install so I phoned my contact in WPD who checked and said there was no paperwork for the install so they had not gained permission.. So the install got delayed.

I had a look online and pod points install instructions suggest they you should have an SPD at the source of the installation, I phoned up and they confirmed they were installing to BS7671 amendment 2 so I quoted regulation 443.4.1 which states that protection for transient voltage for indirect lighting strike shall be provided unless the owner refuses, and stated it even said in their own literature that they recommend one is fitted so why are they not installing, the result I got to was they install it to their standards only and its their interpretation...

I know I am being a bit pedantic as the current installation does not have an SPD but I plan to change the consumer unit in the property have some renovations when the current tenant moves out, and it might even be a complete rewire and I might move the current CU, but the EV charger CU I might just split the tails to keep that in the current position so an SPD would be a good idea...

I am appalled by pod point, first the guy almost installed on a looped supply without first checking, second they want to install in the meter cupboard and thirdly they don't fit SPD's despite them recommending them and it now being a mandatory device, how do they get away with it? I have made a complaint to the NICEIC although I doubt they will do much, failing that I might let them install it then do an EICR afterwards as the guy didnt fill me with confidence when I asked him to provide me with the EIC and building compliance certificate as its a rented property its an EIC will cover that part for 5yrs, he just said "Oh its ok ill test it". I think if it doesnt have an SPD I will deem it unsatisfactory and disconnect it and send the report to the tenants company for them to engage pod point to come and rectify the situation.

Years ago I wanted to get into the EV install market but it was after looking at pod points prices where it was only about £200 more than the unit to have it installed I worked out the costs and the materials were close to that alone so I would make no money, now I know why they can install so cheaply..

Would be interested in what others think... (Have to admit I was a bit ranty, for the average joe they don't have a clue).

Being a looped supply from the REC is that a problem

 

[mainline]

Being a looped supply from the REC is that a problem

Because one or more properties only have one service cable and having the added addition of the EV charger could overload that cable.

 

[catdog1121]

I've only come across 2 installs by pod point, but both were. On one they had installed a 4 mod enclosure with el cheapo dp rcbo in for a charger, (despite the circuit coming from a local consumer unit with type A rcd upfront anyway) no blanks fitted so you could get your mits in it, and loose on the wall of a car port.

Thanks, that seems to be my opinion of them so far, I guess they are installing to a price point and the installer was targeted with doing all the prep and install in under 3hrs...

 

[catdog1121]

Being a looped supply from the REC is that a problem

I checked with WPD, their current policy is you can install with a looped supply but you need to get permission and they will give permission even though the supply is looped, they will then retrospectively unloop the supply... I would guess they need permission first to stop both houses having an EV before the supply is unlooped... Having 1 cable feeding two properties my understanding is they used diversity to say both properties won't be using high loads for long but with car chargers and heat pumps where higher loads can be used for a sustained period then it requires each property to have its own cable...

I would say hats off to WPD they were fantastic and they do it for free (Well I am sure we all pay for it in our bills)

 

[mainline]

I checked with WPD, their current policy is you can install with a looped supply but you need to get permission and they will give permission even though the supply is looped, they will then retrospectively unloop the supply... I would guess they need permission first to stop both houses having an EV before the supply is unlooped... Having 1 cable feeding two properties my understanding is they used diversity to say both properties won't be using high loads for long but with car chargers and heat pumps where higher loads can be used for a sustained period then it requires each property to have its own cable...

I would say hats off to WPD they were fantastic and they do it for free (Well I am sure we all pay for it in our bills)

They won't always give permission, though, as sometimes there could be more than 2 properties connected.

I wonder if they will upgrade rural locations for free ?

 

[Risteard]

I've only come across 2 installs by pod point, but both were. On one they had installed a 4 mod enclosure with el cheapo dp rcbo in for a charger, (despite the circuit coming from a local consumer unit with type A rcd upfront anyway) no blanks fitted so you could get your mits in it, and loose on the wall of a car port.

The RCD should be dedicated for the chargepoint though and not shared so not really an option.

 

[suffolkspark]

The RCD should be dedicated for the chargepoint though and not shared so not really an option.

Oh really? Wasn't aware of that, i thought as long as they have a type A rcd upstream, and a device to limit DC leakage it was ok, in any case they took it off the spare rcd protected way in the cu, then onto theirs downstream so it has 2 rcds in series, and it was still to a dog rough standard physically

 

[catdog1121]

Oh really? Wasn't aware of that, i thought as long as they have a type A rcd upstream, and a device to limit DC leakage it was ok, in any case they took it off the spare rcd protected way in the cu, then onto theirs downstream so it has 2 rcds in series, and it was still to a dog rough standard physically

I thought that was ok as well, and the pod point guy did give an option that if one of the RCD's could be swapped out for a type A instead of the current type AC then he could have come off that point and I am sure I have seen some youtubers like Artisan do this, probably not best practice.

I reconfigured the board so it had a none RCD spare way as agree 2 rcds in series with no diversification is not great as its anyone's guess which RCD trips. I offered to give the guy a hand to install it when he comes back so they have more time to make it neater...

My main issue at the moment is Pod point don't think they need to fit an SPD which out of principal drives me mad as if I fit a new circuit under amendment 2 I need to fit an SPD as per reg 443.4.1 So why do pod point decide they can ignore that reg..

 

[mainline]

I thought that was ok as well, and the pod point guy did give an option that if one of the RCD's could be swapped out for a type A instead of the current type AC then he could have come off that point and I am sure I have seen some youtubers like Artisan do this, probably not best practice.

I reconfigured the board so it had a none RCD spare way as agree 2 rcds in series with no diversification is not great as its anyone's guess which RCD trips. I offered to give the guy a hand to install it when he comes back so they have more time to make it neater...

My main issue at the moment is Pod point don't think they need to fit an SPD which out of principal drives me mad as if I fit a new circuit under amendment 2 I need to fit an SPD as per reg 443.4.1 So why do pod point decide they can ignore that reg..

Because the EV will have some sort of SPD as part of the circuitry ? Just a guess.

 

[suffolkspark]

My main issue at the moment is Pod point don't think they need to fit an SPD which out of principal drives me mad as if I fit a new circuit under amendment 2 I need to fit an SPD as per reg 443.4.1 So why do pod point decide they can ignore that reg..

Well I guess they don't need to work to am2 until September anyway

 

[loz2754]

The only stipulation in the regs is that an EV charge point should be on its own dedicated circuit. There's nothing to indicate it cannot share an RCD.
Though it would not be best practice in my view to share an RCD.

 

[timhoward]

It would be interesting to know if the warranty for the charger mentions surge protection.

 

[catdog1121]

Because the EV will have some sort of SPD as part of the circuitry ? Just a guess.

This is true however it only provides against protection of transient voltages of 1-2kv, this is not enough to fully protect against indirect lightening strikes which is what is required under regulation 443.4.1. Also why would their own documentation recommend a surge protection device at the source of the supply if the surge protection in the device is enough? I mean if it is then fair enough but then tell me that, they are not telling me that, although to be fair the first two answers I had were "We have a lock on the front of the device" and then "We have a CT clamp to stop it over current", I did get through eventually to someone in their technical department and they at no point suggested the surge protection in the device met regulation 443.4.1, only that they follow their own standards and don't fit SPD's.

The actual wording in their installation manual is:

See BS7671: section 443 guidance. The Solo includes Type 3 protection against transient over voltages (+/-2kV Line-Earth and +/-1kV Line-Line as a requirement of EN 61000-6-1). The guidance on risk calculation in section 443.5 in most cases is difficult and it may be prudent that Type 2 protection should be installed at the source of supply, especially if life support equipment or business operations could be affected. Type 1 SPD may also be desired in certain higher risk locations.

To me that makes it seem like the Type 3 SPD does not meet the requirement in section 443.

 

[catdog1121]

Well I guess they don't need to work to am2 until September anyway

This is true although if that was the case then as a new car is worth a fair amount I don't think you could rely on the cost not being worth it, especially now SPD's are so cheap, so a risk assessment would be required... Either way they confirmed they are installing to amendment 2 anyway..

 

[Gavin John Hyde]

Welcome to the world of Podpoint
They are loosing tens of million per year and will at some stage fold without EDF funding the show. charger itself basic and cant be linked to solar or battery, very much old tech now and been left behind by likes of Hypervolt and Myenergi. The grants helped them get market share but as Hypervolt with phenomenal growth have shown price isnt the main factor anymore its customer service, installer support and innovation, Hypervolt sell the unit at same price to every installer so no race to bottom there.
WPD will as stated allow for a charger to be fitted to a lopped supply subject to prior notification and fitting a ct clamp to keep max demand <60A. they then come unloop for free.
No reason not to fit an spd in my view as you can get small CUs with DP Type A RCBO and SPD for under £30 if you look around.
In terms of the meter cabinet, I have mixed views, the general consensus around here with WPD is they dont mind as long as you dont cram the cabinet full and are sensible in leaving space around service head and meter etc...SSEN take a similar approach. its always the least favourable option as coming from the exisitng consumer unit or a new board inside is the best option.

Pod Points cheapest approach is plastic unit on wall below the meter cabinet. they never of course pull the fuse!
Pod Point did approach me around 2 months ago just before I got married and had a chat with them, I said I could not work to your standards, he asked me to explain and i told him the state of most of the installs, if doing 3 a day or 12+ a week you have to be cutting corners. Pod Point have set themselves up as the cheapest option and now cant get out of the hole.
I do think at some point there will be a reckoning for them as i said above they have lost millions (wallbox even more but being american the 100+ million loss is acceptable!?) and in the accounts they have a bit saying EDf agree to fund them going forward... EDf are being hit for 100s million euros selling electric below cost in France as they are state owned. at some point the money men will twig and see a big fat minus X million for PodPoint and say stop it. then i reckon a management buyout is on the cards, they will go to commercial only and then sell the chargers but stop domestic installs.
Ironically the commercial side of podpoint are actually quite good, just seems the people doing domestic installs and often sub contactors are cutting corners and the true race to the bottom.
You have smart meter fitters now fitting ev chargers for british gas/hive, and other meter fitting firms doing the same. One guy I met told me he is an ev charger technician, so i asked him what his qualifications are and how do you get into it... I was a meter fitter but they put us on a 1 week course to fit chargers. i then told him what I did and he wasnt as full of it then... I asked him what they do about earthing and things like rcd protection and spds.. he said I dont deal with that, the person in the office works all that out and puts it on the job sheet. they are taught how to fit one type of charger, splitting tails and do it quickly. they are sent to site with a box of materials that somebody in the office prepares. really dumbed it down and not at all qualified. apparently as there is a QS in the office its allowed.

I am far from the cheapest on EV install quotes but get 95% of those I quote for. When I ask the customers they say its the fact I submit the ENA form to WPD/SSEN as soon as i can and sometimes whilst on site for the quote. and also the details explaing why spd, dp type a rcd/rcbo etc is required with a regulation ref. They find it reassuring. Having installed hundreds I have experience now of so many installs and problems you encounter that it cant be taught on a 3 day training course.

 

[catdog1121]

Welcome to the world of Podpoint
They are loosing tens of million per year and will at some stage fold without EDF funding the show. charger itself basic and cant be linked to solar or battery, very much old tech now and been left behind by likes of Hypervolt and Myenergi. The grants helped them get market share but as Hypervolt with phenomenal growth have shown price isnt the main factor anymore its customer service, installer support and innovation, Hypervolt sell the unit at same price to every installer so no race to bottom there.
WPD will as stated allow for a charger to be fitted to a lopped supply subject to prior notification and fitting a ct clamp to keep max demand <60A. they then come unloop for free.
No reason not to fit an spd in my view as you can get small CUs with DP Type A RCBO and SPD for under £30 if you look around.
In terms of the meter cabinet, I have mixed views, the general consensus around here with WPD is they dont mind as long as you dont cram the cabinet full and are sensible in leaving space around service head and meter etc...SSEN take a similar approach. its always the least favourable option as coming from the exisitng consumer unit or a new board inside is the best option.

Pod Points cheapest approach is plastic unit on wall below the meter cabinet. they never of course pull the fuse!
Pod Point did approach me around 2 months ago just before I got married and had a chat with them, I said I could not work to your standards, he asked me to explain and i told him the state of most of the installs, if doing 3 a day or 12+ a week you have to be cutting corners. Pod Point have set themselves up as the cheapest option and now cant get out of the hole.
I do think at some point there will be a reckoning for them as i said above they have lost millions (wallbox even more but being american the 100+ million loss is acceptable!?) and in the accounts they have a bit saying EDf agree to fund them going forward... EDf are being hit for 100s million euros selling electric below cost in France as they are state owned. at some point the money men will twig and see a big fat minus X million for PodPoint and say stop it. then i reckon a management buyout is on the cards, they will go to commercial only and then sell the chargers but stop domestic installs.
Ironically the commercial side of podpoint are actually quite good, just seems the people doing domestic installs and often sub contactors are cutting corners and the true race to the bottom.
You have smart meter fitters now fitting ev chargers for british gas/hive, and other meter fitting firms doing the same. One guy I met told me he is an ev charger technician, so i asked him what his qualifications are and how do you get into it... I was a meter fitter but they put us on a 1 week course to fit chargers. i then told him what I did and he wasnt as full of it then... I asked him what they do about earthing and things like rcd protection and spds.. he said I dont deal with that, the person in the office works all that out and puts it on the job sheet. they are taught how to fit one type of charger, splitting tails and do it quickly. they are sent to site with a box of materials that somebody in the office prepares. really dumbed it down and not at all qualified. apparently as there is a QS in the office its allowed.

I am far from the cheapest on EV install quotes but get 95% of those I quote for. When I ask the customers they say its the fact I submit the ENA form to WPD/SSEN as soon as i can and sometimes whilst on site for the quote. and also the details explaing why spd, dp type a rcd/rcbo etc is required with a regulation ref. They find it reassuring. Having installed hundreds I have experience now of so many installs and problems you encounter that it cant be taught on a 3 day training course.

Thanks, really insightful. The last time I spoke to pod point the guy hung up on me and could not answer why they don't fit SPD's. I have written to the technical email address of the IET with the details to get a written answer from them so I can go back to pod point and confront them and also present it as evidence to the NICEIC as part of my complaint. I feel at this point that most people would not understand and would not question it so will be pushing it all the way...

The installer that turned up was a young lad, only started a few weeks prior and admitted he was still just trying to get his head round it all, hardly fills you with confidence but at least he was honest.. I think so much of the industry like EICR's EV charge points and solar are being done to such a low price point by unqualified persons to a poor standard... We really need to define what an electrician is, what qualifications you need to become one and then only allowing electricians to work on electrics, kind of like gas safe or the american registered electrician system.

 

[mainline]

Thanks, really insightful. The last time I spoke to pod point the guy hung up on me and could not answer why they don't fit SPD's. I have written to the technical email address of the IET with the details to get a written answer from them so I can go back to pod point and confront them and also present it as evidence to the NICEIC as part of my complaint. I feel at this point that most people would not understand and would not question it so will be pushing it all the way...

The installer that turned up was a young lad, only started a few weeks prior and admitted he was still just trying to get his head round it all, hardly fills you with confidence but at least he was honest.. I think so much of the industry like EICR's EV charge points and solar are being done to such a low price point by unqualified persons to a poor standard... We really need to define what an electrician is, what qualifications you need to become one and then only allowing electricians to work on electrics, kind of like gas safe or the american registered electrician system.

I've seen so-called electricians with 40 years experience that haven't really got a clue.

As for “electricians” being the only ones allowed to do electrical work, where would it end ? How about only mechanics allowed to work on your car ?, only builders allowed to build ?.

Given the choice, I would rather have someone do work who is competent rather than qualified.

 

[pirate]

Well said...competence is always preferable to paper qualifications only. However, we do need a proper classification for electricians...the problem is that those who finally draft the rules will get it all wrong, and the cowboys will still carry on.
Assessment is fine, but how many will clean up their act for that and default to "anything goes" when they can? I don't know the answer, obviously.
There are many parallels out there, but electricity is dangerous so less margin for error...

 

[mainline]

I think let Joe blogs do his cowboy work but make it a criminal offence if it's deemed to be dangerous, make them complete an eicr and put their name to it.

That would force cowboys to at least have the kit and the knowledge to at least be able to test.

 

[Moley]

Would it? It still wouldn't stop Fred Smith asking Joe Williams from down the pub to do a job for him. As now, no testing would be done, no paperwork would be given and Fred would be happy as he's had it done cheap. Neither would either know or care that it could be lethal.

 

[mainline]

Would it? It still wouldn't stop Fred Smith asking Joe Williams from down the pub to do a job for him. As now, no testing would be done, no paperwork would be given and Fred would be happy as he's had it done cheap. Neither would either know or care that it could be lethal.

The difference being, if something went wrong, Both Fred Smith and Joe Williams would be committing a criminal act.

The other thing is why ask Joe Williams when Bob the builder would do it for a tenner using his £50 MFT that he got cheap off flea bay.

 

[MoserV8]

Ill be honest, ive seen so many terrible EV Instals, from the simple design of the installation, to the safety being severely improvised and the "Professional" Installing them having no idea on the fundamentals of electrical safety. I feel the whole EV Installation area is highly specialised, and should be treated as that! It makes my blood boil!

 

[littlespark]

EV installations are no different to any other electrical work.

Both can be done badly, and the examples shown here are down to bad workmanship and could easily be just an outside socket rather than an EV point.

The difference being the higher load over a longer duration

 

[EddieB]

So I am a fully qualified spark with my own company, however I also have a few properties I rent out. One of my tenants asked if they can have an EV charge point put on the house paid for by his company, being the good landlord I said of course no problem just let me know when they are there so I can check they are going to do it right.... So the company employed was Pod point...

Guy turns up, first thing I ask is Do you know its a looped supply? He looks at it and says, "umm well I don't think it is", I said "No I know its a looped supply, I have checked with next door and although there is only one cable coming in here there is two in the neighbours", I then showed him WPD map of the property showing the power cable, I had checked with WPD and they can give permission to install one and unloop it at a later date. He got a bit flustered and said he might not be able to install it then (So he shouldn't install it but was going to anyway), I asked if the paperwork had been sent to WPD, and fair enough he didnt know and would check before installing.

I then ask him what his plan is, he wanted to split the tail and fit a new CU in the meter cupboard, I told him the meter cupboard was for electricity supplier, you can put a meter in there, an isolator, hell even henly blocks I think is ok, but not a consumer unit, he then tried to tell me E-on had given them permission, I said what about WPD and what if the tenant changes supplier and quoted from the efixx video the response from the ENA who basically said no, he insisted they have fitted loads and they are allowed, I then said well your not fitting it there, but gave him another option which was feed off the current CU a 40A non rcd circuit and put their new CU next to the existing one from that, to which he said they can't really touch existing installations, unless it is easier and has type A RCD's. I said its ok, I have the correct bus bars and a 40A mcb for that CU and ill even do the work, he then said this was ok..

I move on to ask him will the new CU come with an SPD? (Current install does not have an SPD and although I know I am being picky a new circuit I was told by both NAPIT and IET you have to fit an SPD), he said nope we don't bother fitting SPD's, he had checked before and higher ups had said if you want an SPD then you need to find a local sparkie to fit one. I said ok ill take it up with pod point, the guy then waited for ages and could not get hold of his company to find out if it was ok to install so I phoned my contact in WPD who checked and said there was no paperwork for the install so they had not gained permission.. So the install got delayed.

I had a look online and pod points install instructions suggest they you should have an SPD at the source of the installation, I phoned up and they confirmed they were installing to BS7671 amendment 2 so I quoted regulation 443.4.1 which states that protection for transient voltage for indirect lighting strike shall be provided unless the owner refuses, and stated it even said in their own literature that they recommend one is fitted so why are they not installing, the result I got to was they install it to their standards only and its their interpretation...

I know I am being a bit pedantic as the current installation does not have an SPD but I plan to change the consumer unit in the property have some renovations when the current tenant moves out, and it might even be a complete rewire and I might move the current CU, but the EV charger CU I might just split the tails to keep that in the current position so an SPD would be a good idea...

I am appalled by pod point, first the guy almost installed on a looped supply without first checking, second they want to install in the meter cupboard and thirdly they don't fit SPD's despite them recommending them and it now being a mandatory device, how do they get away with it? I have made a complaint to the NICEIC although I doubt they will do much, failing that I might let them install it then do an EICR afterwards as the guy didnt fill me with confidence when I asked him to provide me with the EIC and building compliance certificate as its a rented property its an EIC will cover that part for 5yrs, he just said "Oh its ok ill test it". I think if it doesnt have an SPD I will deem it unsatisfactory and disconnect it and send the report to the tenants company for them to engage pod point to come and rectify the situation.

Years ago I wanted to get into the EV install market but it was after looking at pod points prices where it was only about £200 more than the unit to have it installed I worked out the costs and the materials were close to that alone so I would make no money, now I know why they can install so cheaply..

Would be interested in what others think... (Have to admit I was a bit ranty, for the average joe they don't have a clue).

I know this is an old post but I’ve just read this, I’m interested in how do WPD un-loop the supply at a later date, do they install another incomer from the street the the second property?

 

[slartybartfast]

"quoted from the efixx video the response from the ENA who basically said no"

"I move on to ask him will the new CU come with an SPD? (Current install does not have an SPD and although I know I am being picky a new circuit I was told by both NAPIT and IET you have to fit an SPD)"

A couple of things.

Firstly the efixx video about putting equipment in meterbox that says you cannot do it is wrong and misleading. There is no legislation that prohibits you putting equipment inside the meterbox. Now if there is a space issue in future, then that's a conversation between consumer, retailer and the DNO, however that will be extremely unlikely. After all, older properties don't have a meter box - its normally in a cupboard somewhere, rammed with other stuff and limited spare space.

Secondly SPDs are not mandatory. The regs basically say they are advisory on basis of a risk assessment. My view on SPDs is quite simple - have managed for years without surges and the need for protection from them. If one happens, will take it on the chin, and will claim off warranties (e.g. EV manufacturer, laptop manufacturer etc) in the unlikely event that a surge occurs. There is so much BS and confusion around SPDs and it pains me that electricians dont really understand the need and then do the hard sell on the consumer.

 

[littlespark]

There is no legislation that prohibits you putting equipment inside the meterbox.

Apart from a label by the DNO telling you not to.

Most of the time it’s their box, and you would need permission to use it, Adaquate space or not.

There is so much BS and confusion around SPDs and it pains me that electricians dont really understand the need and then do the hard sell on the consumer.

We understand.

And we don’t do the hard sell. We follow guidance from the regulations that are written by people obviously above our pay grade.

We are caught in the middle.

We have to recommend them. If we don’t, and there is an incident…. Johnny go go gadget loses all his expensive equipment and his insurance says “says here you had a rewire done. Didn’t the electrician mention SPDs?”

No payout.

 

[Risteard]

A couple of things.

Firstly the efixx video about putting equipment in meterbox that says you cannot do it is wrong and misleading. There is no legislation that prohibits you putting equipment inside the meterbox. Now if there is a space issue in future, then that's a conversation between consumer, retailer and the DNO, however that will be extremely unlikely. After all, older properties don't have a meter box - its normally in a cupboard somewhere, rammed with other stuff and limited spare space.

Secondly SPDs are not mandatory. The regs basically say they are advisory on basis of a risk assessment. My view on SPDs is quite simple - have managed for years without surges and the need for protection from them. If one happens, will take it on the chin, and will claim off warranties (e.g. EV manufacturer, laptop manufacturer etc) in the unlikely event that a surge occurs. There is so much BS and confusion around SPDs and it pains me that electricians dont really understand the need and then do the hard sell on the consumer.

They didn't claim that it was illegal to fit equipment in the Permali Box though, but rather that it is impermissible. You will be in beach of your agreement with the DNO for supplying you electricity, even though you are the legal owner of the Permali Box (but not the equipment contained within it).

I don't believe BS 7671 is quite as lax with regards to SPD requirements as you claim either. In many circumstances they are now required. They're not merely advisory, other than in limited circumstances.

 

[slartybartfast]

Apart from a label by the DNO telling you not to.

Most of the time it’s their box, and you would need permission to use it, Adaquate space or not.



We understand.

And we don’t do the hard sell. We follow guidance from the regulations that are written by people obviously above our pay grade.

We are caught in the middle.

We have to recommend them. If we don’t, and there is an incident…. Johnny go go gadget loses all his expensive equipment and his insurance says “says here you had a rewire done. Didn’t the electrician mention SPDs?”

No payout.

In what circumstances does the DNO own the meter box? It is normally owned by the consumer

And good luck to Johnny gogo gadget pursuing a claim against electrician that failed to recommend SPD....that's just not going to happen.

 

[DPG]

In what circumstances does the DNO own the meter box? It is normally owned by the consumer

And good luck to Johnny gogo gadget pursuing a claim against electrician that failed to recommend SPD....that's just not going to happen.

It doesn't mean you shouldn't advise the homeowner about SPDs though. And to be honest the outlay is minimal these days for a consumer unit with SPD fitted.

 

[slartybartfast]

wner about SPDs tho

It doesn't mean you shouldn't advise the homeowner about SPDs though. And to be honest the outlay is minimal these days for a consumer unit with SPD fitted.

There is a huge big difference between optional. recommended & mandatory. SPDs remain purely optional and are only relevant based on a risk assessment.

In this country, surge risk remains extremely low, is completely overrated, and protection is by and large completely unnecessary.

Generally speaking sensitive equipment is covered by warranty, and of course an EV could well be driven out of the Uk to a country with high surge risk and low adoption of SPDs.

Yes an out of warranty Tesla could get fried in event of a surge. However probably of surge is low, and impact of surge is dependant on home owners view on money. The likelyhood is that the risk would be determined as low.

Granted a £60 - £80 single phase SPD is somewhat lost in cost of a new consumer unit but that is not the point.

 

[DPG]

There is a huge big difference between optional. recommended & mandatory. SPDs remain purely optional and are only relevant based on a risk assessment.

In this country, surge risk remains extremely low, is completely overrated, and protection is by and large completely unnecessary.

Generally speaking sensitive equipment is covered by warranty, and of course an EV could well be driven out of the Uk to a country with high surge risk and low adoption of SPDs.

Yes an out of warranty Tesla could get fried in event of a surge. However probably of surge is low, and impact of surge is dependant on home owners view on money. The likelyhood is that the risk would be determined as low.

Granted a £60 - £80 single phase SPD is somewhat lost in cost of a new consumer unit but that is not the point.

If you would sooner advise people to make warranty claims for any damaged equipment rather than spend a one-off £60 then fair enough.

I personally would prefer that every new CU had an SPD fitted.

 

[slartybartfast]

If you would sooner advise people to make warranty claims for any damaged equipment rather than spend a one-off £60 then fair enough.

I personally would prefer that every new CU had an SPD fitted.

Yes. I personally went through a re-wire and new CU recently (post amendment 2). Made conscious decision that SPD was BS !

 

[DPG]

Yes. I personally went through a re-wire and new CU recently (post amendment 2). Made conscious decision that SPD was BS !

And that is your choice. No problem

 

[mainline]

A couple of things.

Firstly the efixx video about putting equipment in meterbox that says you cannot do it is wrong and misleading. There is no legislation that prohibits you putting equipment inside the meterbox. Now if there is a space issue in future, then that's a conversation between consumer, retailer and the DNO, however that will be extremely unlikely. After all, older properties don't have a meter box - its normally in a cupboard somewhere, rammed with other stuff and limited spare space.

Secondly SPDs are not mandatory. The regs basically say they are advisory on basis of a risk assessment. My view on SPDs is quite simple - have managed for years without surges and the need for protection from them. If one happens, will take it on the chin, and will claim off warranties (e.g. EV manufacturer, laptop manufacturer etc) in the unlikely event that a surge occurs. There is so much BS and confusion around SPDs and it pains me that electricians dont really understand the need and then do the hard sell on the consumer.

Back last week, 8 people in the same street had dead boilers due to a surge.

I got told because the elderly couple I did a board for had SPD, I guess it was just luck that theirs was fine.

 

[mainline]

SPDs are not mandatory. The regs basically say they are advisory on basis of a risk assessment.

SPDs are required to be fitted where transient overvoltage may cause serious injury to, or loss of, human life.

Surge protection is required to be fitted where overvoltage may cause a failure of a safety service. This could be a fire alarm, automated fire sprinklers, or even emergency lighting.


If anything that is considered a safety service, or a circuit supplying such a service, and it will be negatively impacted by overvoltage, it must now have an SPD fitted.

Responsibility is given to the appropriate British Standard regulations for the following:

• Emergency Lighting systems – Regulation 560.9
• Fire Detection systems – Regulation 560.10
• Life safety & fire fighting – Regulation 560.11

Significant data loss could easily occur in a modern household where computers and mobile devices are present. If these are plugged in at the time of a serious overvoltage, they could easily be damaged, causing data loss.

As an absolute minimum, expect this to apply to mandatory fitting of SPDs in the instance of offices and other areas where there are lots of computers. Again, it would be wise to approach this with a ‘best practise’ attitude and just fit the SPD for the low cost of them.

 

[slartybartfast]

SPDs are required to be fitted where transient overvoltage may cause serious injury to, or loss of, human life.

Surge protection is required to be fitted where overvoltage may cause a failure of a safety service. This could be a fire alarm, automated fire sprinklers, or even emergency lighting.


If anything that is considered a safety service, or a circuit supplying such a service, and it will be negatively impacted by overvoltage, it must now have an SPD fitted.

Responsibility is given to the appropriate British Standard regulations for the following:

• Emergency Lighting systems – Regulation 560.9
• Fire Detection systems – Regulation 560.10
• Life safety & fire fighting – Regulation 560.11

Significant data loss could easily occur in a modern household where computers and mobile devices are present. If these are plugged in at the time of a serious overvoltage, they could easily be damaged, causing data loss.

As an absolute minimum, expect this to apply to mandatory fitting of SPDs in the instance of offices and other areas where there are lots of computers. Again, it would be wise to approach this with a ‘best practise’ attitude and just fit the SPD for the low cost of them.

People need to back up their data on computers, phones etc. The loss of data angle is rather tenuous with common place cloud backup. Don't rely on surge protection.

 

[mainline]

People need to back up their data on computers, phones etc. The loss of data angle is rather tenuous with common place cloud backup. Don't rely on surge protection

What about medical ? Emergency lighting, Alarms ?.

 

[mainline]

SPDs are not mandatory. The regs basically say they are advisory on basis of a risk assessment.

Starting to remind me of that game show.
Pointless

 

[slartybartfast]

What about medical ? Emergency lighting, Alarms ?.

I can see that there is an argument for SPD on say, mains powered linked smoke alarms (and medical, alarms etc). But you are far more likely to have a power failure which renders smoke alarm system inoperable than you are a surge. So for the SPD requirement to make sense, a UPS needs to be mandated. Mission critical systems always have a UPS and just putting an SPD on is a waste. That of course will come in later iterations of the regs....but for now it ain't there !

 

[nicebutdim]

I can see that there is an argument for SPD on say, mains powered linked smoke alarms (and medical, alarms etc). But you are far more likely to have a power failure which renders smoke alarm system inoperable than you are a surge. So for the SPD requirement to make sense, a UPS needs to be mandated. Mission critical systems always have a UPS and just putting an SPD on is a waste. That of course will come in later iterations of the regs....but for now it ain't there !

If you don't mind my asking - what edition of BS7671 are you referencing?

The problem for electricians is that, while many domestic installations may not benefit much from the addition of surge protection, its omission is no longer a matter that can be settled by a customer simply declining the option and now requires a risk assessment. A comprehensive risk assessment takes a significant amount of time, for which the designer will receive no compensation, whereas inclusion of surge protection adds minimal cost to an installation. If you were designing installations, would you take the time to write up a risk assessment for every individual, in many cases finding yourself unable to remove the requirement of surge protection, or would you include it as part of the specification and save yourself considerable hours of unpaid work?

 

[slartybartfast]

If you don't mind my asking - what edition of BS7671 are you referencing?

The problem for electricians is that, while many domestic installations may not benefit much from the addition of surge protection, its omission is no longer a matter that can be settled by a customer simply declining the option and now requires a risk assessment. A comprehensive risk assessment takes a significant amount of time, for which the designer will receive no compensation, whereas inclusion of surge protection adds minimal cost to an installation. If you were designing installations, would you take the time to write up a risk assessment for every individual, in many cases finding yourself unable to remove the requirement of surge protection, or would you include it as part of the specification and save yourself considerable hours of unpaid work?

Such a risk assessment is super easy and super quick.

 

[nicebutdim]

Such a risk assessment is super easy and super quick.

I can provide a risk assessment for anything within minutes, but producing one tailored to a particular installation that meets regulatory requirements and would stand up to legal scrutiny is another proposition entirely.

You didn't mention which edition of BS7671 you have referenced in previous comments.

 

[loz2754]

The risk assessment has been removed in BS7671 for SPDs. Amendment 2.

 

[nicebutdim]

443.4.1 suggests options still exist, although limited.

It would be easy to take certain regulatory statements at face value and conclude that opinion of homeowner absolves designer of any responsibility, but 534.1 would also need to be considered and homeowner's thoughts on that are of no relevance.

GN1 also provides advice on this matter, but I don't have a current copy of it

I asked specifically what @slartybartfast was using as basis for their opinions as I suspect it is (now superseded) blue book.

I commissioned a board this evening in a newly rewired property and the homeowner expressed no opinion on fitment of SPD as I didn't ask for their thoughts on the matter. Difference in price between a main switch board and this main switch board with SPD (+ additional MCB) was £25+vat. If those few pounds had been a deal breaker, I suspect there were many other aspects of my quote that would have been more of a problem.

 

[Mike Johnson]

If, as should be done, a Hazard Analysis is carried out first and concludes that the Hazard does not exist or is of a very low consequence then a Risk Assessment does not have to be carried out.

 

[mainline]

I can see that there is an argument for SPD on say, mains powered linked smoke alarms (and medical, alarms etc). But you are far more likely to have a power failure which renders smoke alarm system inoperable than you are a surge. So for the SPD requirement to make sense, a UPS needs to be mandated. Mission critical systems always have a UPS and just putting an SPD on is a waste. That of course will come in later iterations of the regs....but for now it ain't there !

Placing a surge suppressor in front of the UPS isolates it and its connected equipment from major surge events. The IEEE Standard Section 9.11 states that networked SPD protection is needed and describes protecting a UPS with SPDs

 

[mainline]

If, as should be done, a Hazard Analysis is carried out first and concludes that the Hazard does not exist or is of a very low consequence then a Risk Assessment does not have to be carried out.

What's the difference between a Hazard analysis and a risk assessment when dealing with this scenario.

 

[mainline]

I can see that there is an argument for SPD on say, mains powered linked smoke alarms (and medical, alarms etc). But you are far more likely to have a power failure which renders smoke alarm system inoperable than you are a surge. So for the SPD requirement to make sense, a UPS needs to be mandated. Mission critical systems always have a UPS and just putting an SPD on is a waste. That of course will come in later iterations of the regs....but for now it ain't there !

There is no argument it's a requirement.

And even if the owner declares that surge protection isn't required, then the equipment still has to comply with the rated impulse voltage.
And would need to check that the data, signal, and telecom lines require protection to preserve lighting protection Zones LPZ concept 443.1.1, 534.1