EV Charger Installation - Cabling Query?

[davesparks]

No. The whole installation remains T-N-CS apart from the EV charging circuit. As the rod is connected to the EV charger only that one dedicated circuit becomes TT.

No, the circuit does not become TT, the circuit is connected to the PME. It is only the charger which would be connected to the earth electrode, this creates some interesting issues to my mind.

But the problem with this as I stated earlier is that you cannot have the charger which is inside connected to its own earth rod because that makes it and the car an extraneous part to the PME connected installation.
The charging point and car in the garage is within the equipotential zone of the installation.

 

[davesparks]

No! The rod is connected to the EV charger!! The CPC of the T&E would be insulated and parked at the charger end of the circuit, but connected to the MET at the supply side of the circuit. It's no different from the arrangement that would be used if you were installing a consumer unit in a garage via a TT system.

It is very different to installing a supply to an outbuilding, this unit is within the equipotential zone of the installation, not seperate from it.

 

[davesparks]

If an EV charger is to be installed on a T-N-CS system, not only is a rod(s) to be installed, but additional measures also need to be taken. For instance, any class I luminaires that are connected to the T-N-CS system and are located within simultaneous touching distance of the charger, the connection point and the vehicle under charge; would need to be replaced with class II fittings. Any extraneous conductive metalwork such a water or gas pipe would either need to be shielded in a non-conductive enclosure or converted to plastic piping. These arrangements are absolutely vital so to prevent simultaneous contact being made by a person between two different types of earthing systems. A risk-assessment needs to be undertaken. The written risk assessment document should be appended to the Electrical Installation Certificate. For clarity and reference, I have uploaded section 6.8 of the Code of Practice for Electric Vehicle Charging Equipment.

These arrangements you suggest are laughable, changing lights to class 2? What happens when the light is replaced?
Shielding pipes in non-conductive material? How do you test this site applied insulation? Who will maintain it and ensure it remains in good order?

Let me guess, the solution to the problems is going to be some sort of label telling people what to do or not do? Again, pointless, nobody reads these labels.

 

[davesparks]

As long as the installer made you aware that the car must only be charged inside then it's all good. Maybe a sticker stating this on the charger itself as a reminder would have been a good idea too.

Stickers are a pointless waste of time, they will not be read or taken notice of.

 

[HappyHippyDad]

Stickers are a pointless waste of time, they will not be read or taken notice of.

Completely agree. I feel they are a way of making the installer feel more comfortable with themselves even though they have potentially left a dangerous situation.
I have just seen a garage CU fed by 1.5mm SWA. It has as 32A MCB in it to feed 3 double sockets on a radial. It has a sticker on each socket saying '6A only'!

 

[JK-Electrical]

No, the circuit does not become TT, the circuit is connected to the PME. It is only the charger which would be connected to the earth electrode, this creates some interesting issues to my mind.

But the problem with this as I stated earlier is that you cannot have the charger which is inside connected to its own earth rod because that makes it and the car an extraneous part to the PME connected installation.
The charging point and car in the garage is within the equipotential zone of the installation.

Source:

https://professional-electrician.com/18th-edition/18th-edition-ev-charging

What do the Wiring Regulations say?

When opened to public comment, the draft revisions for section 722 came under intense scrutiny from the industry. In the final published document, the option to use a protective multiple earthing (PME) facility was reduced. PME is the most common form of earthing provided in new electrical installations.

There are ways that PME can be used, but these are often difficult to achieve. Therefore, most installations will rely on separation of the earthing system and making the EV a TT system (using an electrode in the ground).

 

[DT1991]

I see your point davesparks.

The fact on this particular job then is

1 - Either make the whole system TT
2 - Install a charging unit suitable for PME
3 - Remove the garage

I do not agree with the sticker idea as this is a step backwards, if we cannot label a socket in the loft 'TV booster only' then a EV charger is out of the question.

 

[JK-Electrical]

The attached scan is from section 5.3.3.3.1, page 32 of the Code of Practice for Electric Vehicle Charging Equipment Installation. The section heading is: Providing a TT earthing system for the charging equipment.

 

[JK-Electrical]

These arrangements you suggest are laughable, changing lights to class 2? What happens when the light is replaced?

These are not my suggestions, they are what I was taught on the City & Guilds course in EV charging that I did. I dare say that anyone else who has completed the course would have been taught the same.

If these 'suggestions' amuse you, why not e-mail Bill Allan of NAPIT and laugh loudly at him while you tell him that you know more about EV charging than he does. Meanwhile, kindly desist from trying to me appear foolish. Fair enough?

https://professional-electrician.com/18th-edition/changes-introduce-shock-risk

 

[Deleted account]

These are not my suggestions, they are what I was taught on the City & Guilds course in EV charging that I did. I dare say that anyone else who has completed the course would have been taught the same.

If these 'suggestions' amuse you, why not e-mail Bill Allan of NAPIT and laugh loudly at him while you tell him that you know more about EV charging than he does. Meanwhile, kindly desist from trying to me appear foolish. Fair enough?

https://professional-electrician.com/18th-edition/changes-introduce-shock-risk

I was also taught as you describe, and that is what we have to do in installing ev systems, but I think Dave sparks is also right ( maybe I wouldn’t go as far as to say laughable).

For these reasons I won’t fit EV charging points until the code of practice is sorted and an appropriate voltage potential device is invented and fitted in all ev chargers.

 

[bill01803]

The cert is 17th edition, when was the job done?

 

[marconi]

Dear JK-Electrical, you have made a major contribution (#44) to this thread and are clearly installing EV professionally and strictly in accordance with the regulations - thank you and 10/10 Sir.

I did not read Davesparks' comments as directed at you and intended to make you look foolish; rather I interpreted his remarks as directed at the regulations and how they will perform in practical settings - a professional debate on the regulations then, some of the content of which he regards as 'foolish'. Not a great choice of word though IMHO - perhaps ill-thought out would be better said.


M

 

[HappyHippyDad]

I obtained a copy of the report mentioned in the wiring matters magazine article (linked in post #35) sometime ago.

It was an in depth study on the use of PME with regards electric vehicle charging points, authorised by the IET standards Ltd and carried out by the Health and safety Laboratory (HSL).

I have the full report in my emails if anyone wants a copy (I seem to be unable to save/copy it) or the 'results' part of the report is below. It does seem that the 'additional' risk of using PME for the EVCP is very, very low.
From the report below you can see that the 'additional' risk of death or serious injury (p/year) is 0.0000011 (this is 1 in a million). This is also the worst case scenario AND they state that the risk value calculated is likely to be significantly higher than reality, so this means the risk is likely to be far lower than 1 in a million (for example 1 in 10 million), meaning its highly, highly unlikely to pose an additional risk of death or serious injury.

 

[HappyHippyDad]

https://professional-electrician.com/features/are-you-installing-earth-electrodes-correctly-for-electric-vehicle-charging-points

Thanks alot for putting this video clip up JK, it was very interesting and answered a few questions for me.
I see where you are coming from with regards connecting the earth rod to the charge point, you are referring to method (ii) of 722.411.4.1. You are basically adding a supplementary earth electrode rather than making the whole system TT.

 

[hyeung]

Hi,

Hmm i'm not sure where to start with all this. There appears to have been a lot of debate on the subject, and some of the discussions i'm not even entirely sure if I fully followed or not?

Please correct me if I'm wrong in my understanding.

1) The primarily use of the EVCharger will to charge the car whilst it is parked inside the garage. I wanted to confirm that, for this primary purpose am I correct to say that the current installation/setup is OK? So while the car is charging in the garage and in the event of a certain major fault conditions (PEN faults?), we would not be at ANY risk whilst inside, despite touching the car or anything metal in the surroundings (see uploaded photos).
And in this setup, we would not required an earthing rod for this primary use stated here?

2) The main issue that arises is when one decides to charge the car parked outside i.e. car is on the monoblock drive outside of the garage door, whilst connected to the internal EVCharger unit. Under this scenario, if a major fault condition (PEN fault) occurred, there would be a risk if one was touching the car and standing outside on the driveway? In this use-case scenario, one would require an earth rod installation to mitigate the above risk. Is that correct?

However, in situation where I do have an earth rod installed to accommodate use-case scenario (2). Does that mean I can no longer charge the car whilst inside the garage as per use-case (1) without risk?
If I get an earth rod installation, can it accommodate both scenarios of (1) and (2)?

I am not sure I fully understood the previous debates, but seemed to get the impression that if we had an earth rod setup it'll be fine to charge the car outside (scenario 2); but this then has a knock-on-effect as could cause similar risks if one is to charge the car inside the garage and a fault condition arises (PEN fault).
Is this correct?

It sounds like for the given EVCharger that we have, I can only either use this inside only or outside only; and not a mix. Again, correct me if i'm wrong as this is what I've picked up.
At the moment due to the installation setup, i'm only safe to use this when the car is charged inside.
If that is the case, that's fine I would opt to charge the car inside. Prior to the install I was never aware of this issue, no mention was made on the earth rod etc.

I assumed that one could use it charger both ways (inside and outside - provided you could get the cable out). If I have to choose, I'm happy to stick with using the charging inside the garage as this will be my primary use.

Btw, just to be clear i have posted some further pictures of the garage surrounds as it shows other items in there i.e. boiler, any gas pipework, garage opener, smoke alarms etc. In case its of any relevance to all this...

Just to add, the installation was only carried out on Friday. The company is approved for the OLEV scheme; and I also got an application for EST funding for this install.
I wish I knew about this issue, as I may have ended up picking a different charging unit that didn't require earth rod requirements.

I really appreciate everyone's input; and your patience.

Cheers,
HY

 

[Deleted account]

I think you’ve pretty much got it.

As for choosing a unit that wouldn’t need an earth rod. They don’t exist yet.

It states in ev code of practice you can install a voltage trip monitoring device, but they don’t exist and haven’t been invented yet.

This is one of the reasons I don’t fit EV yet even though I can as I’ve done the C&G course.
It’s not been thought through.

 

[Deleted account]

What happens if it’s both as yours is?
In theory changing the whole of the installation to TT which is way over the top. I don’t like that solution at all.

the below confirms my earlier statement.

 

[Deleted account]

Photo didn’t work
Ev code of practice.
6.9 (iii) if a risk assesment shows that the risk of simultaneous contact between any accessible conductive parts connected to PME earth , and any extraneous or exposed conductive parts associated with outdoor vehicle charging equipment( including the connection point and the vehicle on charge) cannot be prevented, the adoption of a TT system for the whole installation can be considered.

 

[HappyHippyDad]

Hi,

Hmm i'm not sure where to start with all this. There appears to have been a lot of debate on the subject, and some of the discussions i'm not even entirely sure if I fully followed or not?

Please correct me if I'm wrong in my understanding.

1) The primarily use of the EVCharger will to charge the car whilst it is parked inside the garage. I wanted to confirm that, for this primary purpose am I correct to say that the current installation/setup is OK? So while the car is charging in the garage and in the event of a certain major fault conditions (PEN faults?), we would not be at ANY risk whilst inside, despite touching the car or anything metal in the surroundings (see uploaded photos).
And in this setup, we would not required an earthing rod for this primary use stated here?

2) The main issue that arises is when one decides to charge the car parked outside i.e. car is on the monoblock drive outside of the garage door, whilst connected to the internal EVCharger unit. Under this scenario, if a major fault condition (PEN fault) occurred, there would be a risk if one was touching the car and standing outside on the driveway? In this use-case scenario, one would require an earth rod installation to mitigate the above risk. Is that correct?

However, in situation where I do have an earth rod installed to accommodate use-case scenario (2). Does that mean I can no longer charge the car whilst inside the garage as per use-case (1) without risk?
If I get an earth rod installation, can it accommodate both scenarios of (1) and (2)?

I am not sure I fully understood the previous debates, but seemed to get the impression that if we had an earth rod setup it'll be fine to charge the car outside (scenario 2); but this then has a knock-on-effect as could cause similar risks if one is to charge the car inside the garage and a fault condition arises (PEN fault).
Is this correct?

It sounds like for the given EVCharger that we have, I can only either use this inside only or outside only; and not a mix. Again, correct me if i'm wrong as this is what I've picked up.
At the moment due to the installation setup, i'm only safe to use this when the car is charged inside.
If that is the case, that's fine I would opt to charge the car inside. Prior to the install I was never aware of this issue, no mention was made on the earth rod etc.

I assumed that one could use it charger both ways (inside and outside - provided you could get the cable out). If I have to choose, I'm happy to stick with using the charging inside the garage as this will be my primary use.

Btw, just to be clear i have posted some further pictures of the garage surrounds as it shows other items in there i.e. boiler, any gas pipework, garage opener, smoke alarms etc. In case its of any relevance to all this...

Just to add, the installation was only carried out on Friday. The company is approved for the OLEV scheme; and I also got an application for EST funding for this install.
I wish I knew about this issue, as I may have ended up picking a different charging unit that didn't require earth rod requirements.

I really appreciate everyone's input; and your patience.

Cheers,
HY

View attachment 51253

View attachment 51254

View attachment 51255

I'll try and answer some of your points hyeung but I think the main answer is that electric vehicle charging points (EVCP) are fairly new and as such all the implications have not been thought through, so you may not get the simple 'yes/no' answers that you would like (as I would).

Point 1
The way I read it you should not even be able to charge the vehicle outside if it is PME, just having good intentions of always doing it inside is not good enough as at some point someone will do it outside, be it your self or the next owners.
However, if you do charge it inside then the risk will be far less (its kind of impossible to say negated as there is always some risk with electrics). This is assuming that your existing electrics are up to standard, in particular you have all the required Main bonding in your house or indeed bonding in the garage if required.

Point 2
Having an earth rod for the whole garage or perhaps just for the EVCP would seem to negate the effect of electric shock whilst outside as long as you cannot come into contact with any metal parts (whilst simultaneously touching the car) which are part of the PME system, exposed or extraneous.

As with point 2 it would still be ok to charge the vehicle indoors if you have an earth rod as long as you cannot come into simultaneous contact with any metal parts which are part of the PME system. (e.g. touching car and other metal part at the same time)

I would have thought a bit of investigation when installing these units would be undertaken to establish if any extraneous conductive parts are simultaneously touchable with the vehicle or charging point.

 

[hyeung]

I'll try and answer some of your points hyeung but I think the main answer is that electric vehicle charging points (EVCP) are fairly new and as such all the implications have not been thought through, so you may not get the simple 'yes/no' answers that you would like (as I would).

Point 1
The way I read it you should not even be able to charge the vehicle outside if it is PME, just having good intentions of always doing it inside is not good enough as at some point someone will do it outside, be it your self or the next owners.
However, if you do charge it inside then the risk will be far less (its kind of impossible to say negated as there is always some risk with electrics). This is assuming that your existing electrics are up to standard, in particular you have all the required Main bonding in your house or indeed bonding in the garage if required.

Point 2
Having an earth rod for the whole garage or perhaps just for the EVCP would seem to negate the effect of electric shock whilst outside as long as you cannot come into contact with any metal parts (whilst simultaneously touching the car) which are part of the PME system, exposed or extraneous.

As with point 2 it would still be ok to charge the vehicle indoors if you have an earth rod as long as you cannot come into simultaneous contact with any metal parts which are part of the PME system. (e.g. touching car and other metal part at the same time)

I would have thought a bit of investigation when installing these units would be undertaken to establish if any extraneous conductive parts are simultaneously touchable with the vehicle or charging point.

I'll try and answer some of your points hyeung but I think the main answer is that electric vehicle charging points (EVCP) are fairly new and as such all the implications have not been thought through, so you may not get the simple 'yes/no' answers that you would like (as I would).

Point 1
The way I read it you should not even be able to charge the vehicle outside if it is PME, just having good intentions of always doing it inside is not good enough as at some point someone will do it outside, be it your self or the next owners.
However, if you do charge it inside then the risk will be far less (its kind of impossible to say negated as there is always some risk with electrics). This is assuming that your existing electrics are up to standard, in particular you have all the required Main bonding in your house or indeed bonding in the garage if required.

Point 2
Having an earth rod for the whole garage or perhaps just for the EVCP would seem to negate the effect of electric shock whilst outside as long as you cannot come into contact with any metal parts (whilst simultaneously touching the car) which are part of the PME system, exposed or extraneous.

As with point 2 it would still be ok to charge the vehicle indoors if you have an earth rod as long as you cannot come into simultaneous contact with any metal parts which are part of the PME system. (e.g. touching car and other metal part at the same time)

I would have thought a bit of investigation when installing these units would be undertaken to establish if any extraneous conductive parts are simultaneously touchable with the vehicle or charging point.

Hi,

So for point 1; sounds like I'm perfectly fine with indoor charging as it stands. I wasn't sure what you meant by bonding.

For point 2; assuming i had the earth rod setup, as per my recent uploaded photos. The only obvious metal areas that come to mind would probably be the gas pipe entering the wall towards to garage door and where that pipe comes down toward the boiler. The garage opener situated at the top; i imagine is using the house earth (PME), and not sure if that conducts with the garage door as such.

Looking at the gas pipe connection from outside coming in, it appears to be earthed.

It just sounds impratical if one has to shield all these areas? assuming I am correct on what i've highlighted?

You can give me your thoughts, but it sounds like alot hassle to accommodate this indoor charger for outdoor use; and as my primarily use is indoors, then i might as well just stick with that. I appreciate it doesn't negate things from a safety point of view as it does not stop some else using it in another way.
Not sure what to do!?
If i knew this, i would have consider a different unit that supports PME i.e. Zappi or the more expensive Andersen A2 units.

Is it still worth while querying the installer, on the use of this outdoors to see what they say? or just act unaware and mention I noticed that for the unit, there appears to be mention of a mandatory earth rod required for this given unit i.e. does this mean i can't use this outside etc?

Can I ask what the cost would be involve to get an earth rod installed? I assume the part is cheap but more of the labour? Sounds like i'm gonna get stung for additional labour costs to install? But as mentioned, if makes charging inside problematic then i'd be inclined not to do it?
Thoughts?

 

[Midwest]

I've been reading these posts & links back and forth, and I 'm confused. Easily done.

After watching the vid, I think it suggest using a supplementary earth, connected to the MET of a TN-C-S supply. Why would TT'ing just the charger be an option, with the problems outlined?

 

[HappyHippyDad]

It is all getting a bit confusing isn't it!
I know what i'd do in my own home but i'm afraid that would be irresponsible to say on a open forum!
Have a chat with the installer @hyeung and put a few of these points to them.

 

[Midwest]

I've been reading these posts & links back and forth, and I 'm confused. Easily done.

After watching the vid, I think it suggest using a supplementary earth ROD, connected to the MET of a TN-C-S supply. Why would TT'ing just the charger be an option, with the problems outlined?

Missed that bit in my post

 

[Midwest]

It is all getting a bit confusing isn't it!
I know what i'd do in my own home but i'm afraid that would be irresponsible to say on a open forum!

Go on, your secret would be safe with us.

 

[Midwest]

As for choosing a unit that wouldn’t need an earth rod. They don’t exist yet.

This suggests they do exist?

Do EV chargers need earth rods

Electric vehicle charge point manufacturers are adding intelligent electronics to remove the need for earth rods.

www.efixx.co.uk

 

[Midwest]

Here's another aspect to consider (3.6.2. Earthing);

https://www.westernpower.co.uk/downloads-view/29293

None of this seems to have been thoroughly considered. Perhaps the recent power outage, was down to people using EV chargers for POETS day on Friday

And to think the draft 18th was gonna make us add a rod to every pme property!

 

[Deleted account]

This suggests they do exist?

Do EV chargers need earth rods

Electric vehicle charge point manufacturers are adding intelligent electronics to remove the need for earth rods.

www.efixx.co.uk

Yep I concede.

They do now exist.
When I did my course about 12 months ago they didn’t.

Probably start fitting them now.

 

[DT1991]

The obvious choice for anybody is to fit a charging unit suitable for PME.

 

[Midwest]

Yep I concede.

They do now exist.
When I did my course about 12 months ago they didn’t.

Probably start fitting them now.

It does beg the question though, when all have electric cars, how the infrastructure will manage?

 

[Midwest]

The obvious choice for anybody is to fit a charging unit suitable for PME.

Why not the supplementary earth rod path?

 

[DT1991]

Why not the supplementary earth rod path?

When put into maths it requires a stupid low Ra value which cannot in reality be sustained.

That's my understanding?

 

[Midwest]

When put into maths it requires a stupid low Ra value which cannot in reality be sustained.

That's my understanding?

But isn't that the case for all earth rods with ev chargers (don't they do an efli test), whether TT or supplementary earth rod?

 

[DT1991]

I dont think the maths is the same.

When PME and using a supplementary earth rod it takes into account the max current of the installation and this is put into the equation which brings up a low Ra value.[/QUOTE]

 

[Deleted account]

When put into maths it requires a stupid low Ra value which cannot in reality be sustained.

That's my understanding?

Yes we did some calcs at college when we did the course. It was nigh on impossible. I think 3 earth rods 1 meter apart 2.4 meters deep might do it. Depending on resistivity of the earth.
So they have given us a solution to the problem that is pretty pointless.

 

[Deleted account]

I dont think the maths is the same.

When PME and using a supplementary earth rod it takes into account the max current of the installation and this is put into the equation which brings up a low Ra value.

[/QUOTE]
You don’t take the pme into account when doing the maths as the rods are there in case you loose the neutral, thus loose the pme.

 

[Deleted account]

duplicate post again ok

 

[DT1991]

Sorry pete what do you mean by that?

 

[Deleted account]

The major point of TT for ev is in case of dropped neutral on supplier side.

That in itself is pretty rubbish that we have to prepare for faults that are nothing to do with our regs and are in the control of the DNO’s.

So we need to know that the earth rods being put in at the origin are adequate without the pme if the neutral is lost by DNO

 

[davesparks]

These are not my suggestions, they are what I was taught on the City & Guilds course in EV charging that I did. I dare say that anyone else who has completed the course would have been taught the same.

If these 'suggestions' amuse you, why not e-mail Bill Allan of NAPIT and laugh loudly at him while you tell him that you know more about EV charging than he does. Meanwhile, kindly desist from trying to me appear foolish. Fair enough?

https://professional-electrician.com/18th-edition/changes-introduce-shock-risk

I don't claim to know more about EV charging than anyone. However is is obvious (hopefully) that introducing an extraneous earth potential into an installation then connecting it to a big piece of exposed metal (car) goes against the basic principles of protection against electric shock.

I am not trying to make you appear foolish, I have no need to do this. By suggesting that one can laugh loudly in an email you have achieved this appearance without my input.

 

[davesparks]

if the prohibition of PME for EV chargers is to eliminate risk if the supply N is lost (as with metalclad caravans) the I can't see any reason to differentiate between inside or outside. a fault occuring would have a similar result, in or out. then, i have not done any research on EV so my knowledge is limited.

If the vehicle is inside then it is, technically, within the equipotential zone and becomes no different to any other exposed, earthed, metal in the building. The car being charged in the garage presents the same hazard as the class 1 freezer in the garage.

 

[davesparks]

The attached scan is from section 5.3.3.3.1, page 32 of the Code of Practice for Electric Vehicle Charging Equipment Installation. The section heading is: Providing a TT earthing system for the charging equipment.

So how do you ensure that the zone of influence of the earth electrode does not overlap the zone of influence of any metalwork connected to the PME earth?
Do you trace and map out every gas and water pipe, buried structural steel etc?
Do you get accurate maps from the DNO showing the extent of the zone of influence of every buried PME electrode in the street, street furniture, repurposed PILC cable etc?

 

[Midwest]

So how do you ensure that the zone of influence of the earth electrode does not overlap the zone of influence of any metalwork connected to the PME earth?
Do you trace and map out every gas and water pipe, buried structural steel etc?
Do you get accurate maps from the DNO showing the extent of the zone of influence of every buried PME electrode in the street, street furniture, repurposed PILC cable etc?

The link I posted from WPD, gives their views on such (for those who've not read it);
‘The earthing considerations for the connection of electric vehicle charge points are firstly the type of earthing arrangement (PME, SNE or TT) and secondly the required segregation between these different earthing types. The requirements of the Code of Practice for the installation of EV charging equipment makes the use of protective multiple earthing (PME) prohibitive and steers installations towards a TT setup. However the IET Wiring Regulations (Guidance note 7) requires segregation of a minimum of 10m between the PME and TT earthing systems. We understand that this requirement will restrict installations in the street and therefore we have recalculated the requirement using modelling specifically for a street side application. As a result we can reduce the distance so that a balanced three phase demand utilising a TT earthing system will require segregation from the WPD earthing system by a minimum of 0.3m and a single phase or unbalanced connection would require a segregation of 3.6m.’

 

[Midwest]

Yes we did some calcs at college when we did the course. It was nigh on impossible. I think 3 earth rods 1 meter apart 2.4 meters deep might do it. Depending on resistivity of the earth.
So they have given us a solution to the problem that is pretty pointless.

What formulae were used?

Seem crazy now, that the 18th draft was considering going earth rod mungus or is that something different?

 

[stevethesparks]

How many electricians install an earth rod for an outdoor socket on a pme system, supplementary or otherwise. Cant see much difference myself.

 

[Midwest]

How many electricians install an earth rod for an outdoor socket on a pme system, supplementary or otherwise. Cant see much difference myself.

You’re not plugging in a big metal box on rubber wheels into your outdoor socket. Must of the things I plug into my outdoor socket are Class II.

 

[stevethesparks]

just for instance, a trailing lead across a pavement for a booster charger, admittedly not as big a target, but there are many class I appliances that could be plugged in to such.
Surely similar considerations should be given to outdoor sockets, especially as there is no end to what some mugs will plug into them.

 

[hyeung]

Hi,

I got back in touch with the installer.....and sent the following email:

"There is something I was looking to clarify with you in relation to my recent charger installation.

As you know the charging unit is located internally in my garage, as my primary intensions will be to charge whilst the car is parked inside the garage overnight.

However, as the selected location of the charging unit is next to the garage door, I had also anticipated that the unit could be used for outside charging as the cabling could easily run under the garage door.

A friend of ours has a similar EO installation where their charger is also located internally next to the garage door like ours, therefore enabling him to charge either indoors or outdoors.

However, he had pointed out to me that in order to charge outside there are some safety regulations required on the earthing requirements of the install; such that their installer had advised that an Earthing rod would be required.

It appears within my installation, the charging unit is setup to use our domestic earthing system (i.e. T-N-CS (PME)) and not via an Earthing rod?

I had checked out the EO website regarding this requirement, and as per the latest 18th edition regulations (Section 722.411.4.1) it does appear to state that PME earthing systems should not be used for any outdoor charging, and that the primary mechanism should be an Earthing rod for the EO charging unit.

It looks like this regulation is primarily there as a protection against the risk of fatal shock hazards caused from faults within the supply network of earthing systems (i.e T-N-CS (PME))

So having come across the above information, I am naturally concerned particularly on the safety aspects if one was to charge outside?

As I’ve mentioned, the primary use will be charging indoors, but with the possibility of future and occasion-use for outdoor charging in mind – Hence the selected location of the charging unit is located next to the garage door; allowing cabling to reach the front of the driveway.

Prior and during the install, I was not made aware that there would be any issues based on my anticipated use-cases; and likewise there were no earthing requirements highlighted for consideration.

However, these latest regulations seem to suggest otherwise, and therefore I would want to obtain clarification that I am safe to use the charger as intended (i.e. both indoors and outdoors)

Or is it the case that the earthing setup will need to be changed to cater for outdoor use i.e. Earthing rod?

If an Earthing rod must be used, would I still be able to charge safely whilst parked inside the garage as per my primary intended use i.e. assessment of any extraneous conductive parts that are simultaneously touchable with the vehicle or charge point etc."

 

[HappyHippyDad]

Hi,

I got back in touch with the installer.....and sent the following email:

"There is something I was looking to clarify with you in relation to my recent charger installation.

As you know the charging unit is located internally in my garage, as my primary intensions will be to charge whilst the car is parked inside the garage overnight.

However, as the selected location of the charging unit is next to the garage door, I had also anticipated that the unit could be used for outside charging as the cabling could easily run under the garage door.

A friend of ours has a similar EO installation where their charger is also located internally next to the garage door like ours, therefore enabling him to charge either indoors or outdoors.

However, he had pointed out to me that in order to charge outside there are some safety regulations required on the earthing requirements of the install; such that their installer had advised that an Earthing rod would be required.

It appears within my installation, the charging unit is setup to use our domestic earthing system (i.e. T-N-CS (PME)) and not via an Earthing rod?

I had checked out the EO website regarding this requirement, and as per the latest 18th edition regulations (Section 722.411.4.1) it does appear to state that PME earthing systems should not be used for any outdoor charging, and that the primary mechanism should be an Earthing rod for the EO charging unit.

It looks like this regulation is primarily there as a protection against the risk of fatal shock hazards caused from faults within the supply network of earthing systems (i.e T-N-CS (PME))

So having come across the above information, I am naturally concerned particularly on the safety aspects if one was to charge outside?

As I’ve mentioned, the primary use will be charging indoors, but with the possibility of future and occasion-use for outdoor charging in mind – Hence the selected location of the charging unit is located next to the garage door; allowing cabling to reach the front of the driveway.

Prior and during the install, I was not made aware that there would be any issues based on my anticipated use-cases; and likewise there were no earthing requirements highlighted for consideration.

However, these latest regulations seem to suggest otherwise, and therefore I would want to obtain clarification that I am safe to use the charger as intended (i.e. both indoors and outdoors)

Or is it the case that the earthing setup will need to be changed to cater for outdoor use i.e. Earthing rod?

If an Earthing rod must be used, would I still be able to charge safely whilst parked inside the garage as per my primary intended use i.e. assessment of any extraneous conductive parts that are simultaneously touchable with the vehicle or charge point etc."

Ha ha, your electrician will be thinking "sxxx, he knows his stuff!"
I think that's well worded hyeung, however from the little I've seen of your posts you're not one to just accept a half answered question. I wonder what you will do if he just says says 'yes, it's fine for outside'!
Let us the know the response and then we can start the discussion all over again.

 

[hyeung]

Hi,

I got back in touch with the installer.....and sent the following email:

"There is something I was looking to clarify with you in relation to my recent charger installation.

As you know the charging unit is located internally in my garage, as my primary intensions will be to charge whilst the car is parked inside the garage overnight.

However, as the selected location of the charging unit is next to the garage door, I had also anticipated that the unit could be used for outside charging as the cabling could easily run under the garage door.

A friend of ours has a similar EO installation where their charger is also located internally next to the garage door like ours, therefore enabling him to charge either indoors or outdoors.

However, he had pointed out to me that in order to charge outside there are some safety regulations required on the earthing requirements of the install; such that their installer had advised that an Earthing rod would be required.

It appears within my installation, the charging unit is setup to use our domestic earthing system (i.e. T-N-CS (PME)) and not via an Earthing rod?

I had checked out the EO website regarding this requirement, and as per the latest 18th edition regulations (Section 722.411.4.1) it does appear to state that PME earthing systems should not be used for any outdoor charging, and that the primary mechanism should be an Earthing rod for the EO charging unit.

It looks like this regulation is primarily there as a protection against the risk of fatal shock hazards caused from faults within the supply network of earthing systems (i.e T-N-CS (PME))

So having come across the above information, I am naturally concerned particularly on the safety aspects if one was to charge outside?

As I’ve mentioned, the primary use will be charging indoors, but with the possibility of future and occasion-use for outdoor charging in mind – Hence the selected location of the charging unit is located next to the garage door; allowing cabling to reach the front of the driveway.

Prior and during the install, I was not made aware that there would be any issues based on my anticipated use-cases; and likewise there were no earthing requirements highlighted for consideration.

However, these latest regulations seem to suggest otherwise, and therefore I would want to obtain clarification that I am safe to use the charger as intended (i.e. both indoors and outdoors)

Or is it the case that the earthing setup will need to be changed to cater for outdoor use i.e. Earthing rod?

If an Earthing rod must be used, would I still be able to charge safely whilst parked inside the garage as per my primary intended use i.e. assessment of any extraneous conductive parts that are simultaneously touchable with the vehicle or charge point etc."

In response I got the following....

"Your understanding of the earthing requirements is correct, if you wish to use your charger to charge the car outside then regulations state the use of a TT earth is required, if the charge point is to be used inside then connection to your house earth is recommended.

Looking back at the information you provided, you requested that the charge point be installed inside the garage and we have assumed that this would be for the purpose of charging inside, we will look to clarify this to all customers going forward.

If the charge point is fitted outside and connected to a TT earth then it should not be used inside the garage as this is a different earthing zone(house earth)

Hope this clarifies matters.
Regards"

It seems from his response it suggest that I cannot have it both ways?

So when the charger is inside, its recommended that I use house earth and can only charge whilst inside.

If I want to charge outside, then the charger unit should ideally sit outside and an earth rod used (TT); and in this case I cannot use this for charging inside.

There is no both?
However, a friend of ours has the exact same EO installation (but his is tethered). It has been installed in his garage, and he uses this inside but has been installed with an earth rod for outside charging?
See attached photos.
The car forums that I've been on, have also shown similar folk using their charge in their garage for outside charging.

I've gone back to clarify with the installer that I can definitely not do it both ways?
Perhaps I should contact the manufacture of the unit and get their side of the story as well? If they say the same, then i'm happy to walk away and stick to the setup that I have - which is what i'd primarily use it for. It's just that I've seen others use it both ways, which either means it possible and fine, or perhaps in reality is genuinely isn't a safe approach?

What are your thoughts??

 

[hyeung]

Ha ha, your electrician will be thinking "sxxx, he knows his stuff!"
I think that's well worded hyeung, however from the little I've seen of your posts you're not one to just accept a half answered question. I wonder what you will do if he just says says 'yes, it's fine for outside'!
Let us the know the response and then we can start the discussion all over again.

I think more thanks to my sparky buddies on this forum...sounds like I know my stuff