Is Part 'P' enforceable?

[Bob Geldoff1234]

I recently wired an extension for a customer and certified it and notified Part'P' Building control so all good.
As I was working on this extension the neighbour from across the street came in to have a nosey.
Anyway the upshot is the builder is building an extension for the neighbour at the moment.When speaking to the builder I thought I might get the job of wiring his extension but evidently the neighbour himself is wiring it.He is not a qualified electrician and doesn't belong to any scheme.I have told the builder that he cannot wire his own extension without getting the council to certify it and inspect it at all the stages.This,he has not done.
So my question is,when the building inspector asks for the part 'P' certificate he obviously cannot give one.Is the house owner breaking the law? Could the council make him rip it out? If they accept an EICR instead then it makes a mockery of Part 'p'?
What is everyone's thoughts on this?

 

[snowhead]

He won't get a Completion Certificate from building control without proof the electrical work is compliant.
It'll just sit with Building Control as not yet complete and he won't be able to sell it.
He'll have to go down the "Electrician has disappeared and not notified it" route.

 

[Des 56]

If there is full plans approval then as far as I know the electrical inspections are paid as part of that fee

when the building inspector asks for the part 'P' certificate

In my experience all he will ever expect is a installation certificate ! He would then take no action to check from whence it came but would go away happy that his responsibilities have been discharged

If they accept an EICR instead then it makes a mockery of Part 'p'
Part P needed no one to make it a mockery that was self evident from the outset

Could the council make him rip it out
Theoretically yes they can,but realistically no,they would do all they can to get someone to accept responsibility for the installation

 

[buzzlightyear]

now bobs worth,lol, if the council asks him and he has nowt ,I agree what the others are saying if they except a EICR ,what is the point in Fart P.

 

[ashrow]

A lot of domestic electrical works are not under part p ie minor works (ie extending an existing circuit)
Also if LABC do not pass off works then when time to sell up they can buy planning permission indemnity insurance, which in some cases is so much cheaper then doing it the right way

 

[Bob Geldoff1234]

The last building inspector I spoke to wanted me to send him the Part 'P' certificate directly to him so he could sign it off.He said waiting for the NIC's notification from them took a few weeks delay.He never asked to see the installation certificate!.
It really gets my goat that I have to jump through all different hoops to be qualified and safe and yet no one gets in trouble when jokers like this do their own work.I despair

 

[buzzlightyear]

some times the b/inspector will meet you on site when the job completed and show them on the spot .

 

[Des 56]

I was registered 2 days ago and found during my time that competitors ( some of them mates)they had no problems at all after doing notifiable work whilst not registered

Registration is also a voluntary means of complying
Because someone is not registered it does not mean they are not qualified or are a cowboy installer
Its a personal and business decision whether to register,it has never been compulsory,maybe that is why it was all doomed from the outset many years ago,its likely only us doers of "what should be" are at all concerned and in hindsight we were always the mugs who did it right

 

[ashrow]

just to make a note......some building inspectors dont know what they are asking for either.
I had job where a engineer spec'ed a steel RSJ but i could not carry out the work until the LABC had those calculations checked by a out sourced company. i asked the inspector about her qualifications and she had none related to building, engineering etc etc so they had to double check things !!!
What a waste of money

 

[Megawatt]

The last building inspector I spoke to wanted me to send him the Part 'P' certificate directly to him so he could sign it off.He said waiting for the NIC's notification from them took a few weeks delay.He never asked to see the installation certificate!.
It really gets my goat that I have to jump through all different hoops to be qualified and safe and yet no one gets in trouble when jokers like this do their own work.I despair

Bob had he done that in the US and the local code enforcement found out he would be took to court and probably fined him $ 500.00 plus the state would get their state investigator to go out and investigate the job himself and yes he can have it took loose. Then charge him for that service of doing it over.

 

[pirate]

Ashrow, I had the same scenario. The architect specified an RSJ, but correctly farmed it out to a structural engineer to give the exact spec.
The builder (and i use that term loosely) was in the process of installing the RSJ when the architect turned up, measured it and rejected it. The builder simply shrugged, said he had it in store and it would do the job. BC arrived and the lad said he had no experience so had to go with the structural engineers spec.
The new one arrived 3 days later, and it was massively bigger...all the builder said was it had cost him £80.
Had the architect not been on hand, half an hour later the RSJ would have been in place, covered over, and no-one would have known any better....until the Grand Piano fell through the floor into the garage below!

 

[remedial]

Building control is a joke. I saw a post on a facebook group saying that where notifiable work is done, one labc tells builders to get an electrician to certify the work after its done, knowing that no electrician was involved in the installation

 

[buzzlightyear]

Bob had he done that in the US and the local code enforcement found out he would be took to court and probably fined him $ 500.00 plus the state would get their state investigator to go out and investigate the job himself and yes he can have it took loose. Then charge him for that service of doing it over.

lol. four bleating words

 

[DPG]

Bob had he done that in the US and the local code enforcement found out he would be took to court and probably fined him $ 500.00 plus the state would get their state investigator to go out and investigate the job himself and yes he can have it took loose. Then charge him for that service of doing it over.

Sounds a better way to deal with things that.

 

[buzzlightyear]

I remember a few years ago when finished a new building ,gets a call its the building inspector have got your member number and test cert number not even finished the job .
[automerge]1567453272[/automerge]

I was registered 2 days ago

wow ,try since 2005 john fat watch me belly punch out presctot ,love the guy

 

[Des 56]

try since 2005 john fat watch me belly punch out presctot ,love the guy

I was registered 2 days ago,now I'm not
I was also registered 12 years until 2 days ago

 

[PEG]

Surely the government has "Part P" detector vans? They have them for the TV licence job....can't see no reason for not extending the foolishness xxxx i mean,policy...

 

[Fitzy]

A lot of domestic electrical works are not under part p ie minor works (ie extending an existing circuit)
Also if LABC do not pass off works then when time to sell up they can buy planning permission indemnity insurance, which in some cases is so much cheaper then doing it the right way

A friend of my brother (in Norwich) had this exact scenario, had ‘Martin’ from down the pub wire he’s 2 storey extension 5 years ago never notified LABC or issued an EIC, sold his house in July, indemnity insurance cost him £50, LABC fee was over £200 5 years ago.

 

[Andrew Hunter]

I was registered 2 days ago and found during my time that competitors ( some of them mates)they had no problems at all after doing notifiable work whilst not registered

Registration is also a voluntary means of complying
Because someone is not registered it does not mean they are not qualified or are a cowboy installer
Its a personal and business decision whether to register,it has never been compulsory,maybe that is why it was all doomed from the outset many years ago,its likely only us doers of "what should be" are at all concerned and in hindsight we were always the mugs who did it right

Des
Allthough in essance i agree with you that there are too many chancers and jokers out there that can and do carry out ---- work. there are also a lot of very good electricians that are not registered due to the fact they are employed by a company that is registered as such do installations to a very good and safe standard but only do domestic works for freinds/family or even in there own property yet are not allowed to fill in a test cirtificate from their registered company due to fact that company has not done invoicable work on the property and because the clowns at the councils are just pen pushers with tick boxes to wok off its is sometimes like talking to a brick wall not to mention they just see an opertunity to dip the owners pockets for money.
Oh the arguments i have have with thickos its all good fun especially when they try telling me that a 2 miniute Part P qualified numpty is going to have to inspect a 30 year qualified electrical engineer with test and inspection 16th, 17th & 18th edition SAP qualified and HND in electrical engineering's work. Me thinks not.

 

[Taylortwocities]

a 30 year qualified electrical engineer with test and inspection 16th, 17th & 18th edition SAP qualified and HND in electrical engineering

Wow, do you know somebody like that, then?

 

[telectrix]

Wow, do you know somebody like that, then?

almost me. 30+ years, 16th, 17th, HND. can't be arsed to jump another hoop (18th), college ain't got access for my zimmer frame.

 

[Zerax]

The last building inspector I spoke to wanted me to send him the Part 'P' certificate directly to him so he could sign it off.He said waiting for the NIC's notification from them took a few weeks delay.He never asked to see the installation certificate!.
It really gets my goat that I have to jump through all different hoops to be qualified and safe and yet no one gets in trouble when jokers like this do their own work.I despair

Welcome to modern Britain !

 

[Taylortwocities]

A “Part P Certificate”? What’s one of those then?

 

[Midwest]

Having been asked recently by some old customers and their conveyancing solicitors for copies of electrical certs & compliances certificates they forgot to store in a safe place, I kinda feel they are catching on to this thing now.

I boring myself repeating this, but I moved house last year. You are required to fill and sign a legal document, stating, amongst other things, if you've had any electrical work carried out since 2005.

If you research indemnity insurance, some suggest its not worth the money. It only indemnifies you against legal action by your LBC, but not for poor workmanship (there's a time limit on regularisation for prosecution or enforcement). And who wants to buy a property thats a bag or worms, so to speak.

 

[Taylortwocities]

. And who wants to buy a property thats a bag or worms, so to speak

A certificate or a notification is no guarantee of anything. My friend bought a brand new house two years ago. All NHBC, part P, FENSA, signed off by LABC.
Two years later he is still battling for about a dozen issues to be fixed.

 

[Deleted account]

Bob had he done that in the US and the local code enforcement found out he would be took to court and probably fined him $ 500.00 plus the state would get their state investigator to go out and investigate the job himself and yes he can have it took loose. Then charge him for that service of doing it over.

I love the American legal system. We really need to sit up and take notice.

Maybe once we are out of the shackles of Europe we could get shackled with America as the 51st state.
[automerge]1568912208[/automerge]

Having been asked recently by some old customers and their conveyancing solicitors for copies of electrical certs & compliances certificates they forgot to store in a safe place, I kinda feel they are catching on to this thing now.

I boring myself repeating this, but I moved house last year. You are required to fill and sign a legal document, stating, amongst other things, if you've had any electrical work carried out since 2005.

If you research indemnity insurance, some suggest its not worth the money. It only indemnifies you against legal action by your LBC, but not for poor workmanship (there's a time limit on regularisation for prosecution or enforcement). And who wants to buy a property thats a bag or worms, so to speak.

I’ve been asked a lot more than I ever have also. I think your right.

 

[ipf]

Des
Allthough in essance i agree with you that there are too many chancers and jokers out there that can and do carry out ---- work. there are also a lot of very good electricians that are not registered due to the fact they are employed by a company that is registered as such do installations to a very good and safe standard but only do domestic works for freinds/family or even in there own property yet are not allowed to fill in a test cirtificate from their registered company due to fact that company has not done invoicable work on the property and because the clowns at the councils are just pen pushers with tick boxes to wok off its is sometimes like talking to a brick wall not to mention they just see an opertunity to dip the owners pockets for money.
Oh the arguments i have have with thickos its all good fun especially when they try telling me that a 2 miniute Part P qualified numpty is going to have to inspect a 30 year qualified electrical engineer with test and inspection 16th, 17th & 18th edition SAP qualified and HND in electrical engineering's work. Me thinks not.

Phewf.….I've just come up for air after trying to read the 'sentences'. I agree with the lines of your post, especially the last paragraph...but the bad spelling and lack of commas and full stops left me out of breath.

 

[littlespark]

almost me. 30+ years, 16th, 17th, HND. can't be arsed to jump another hoop (18th), college ain't got access for my zimmer frame.

Gees. I’ve been in the business 29 years. If you count the 4 year apprenticeship started at 16.... was out the business, back in... out, in out... shook it all about!

16th, 17th and 18th... and an unused BSc

I’ve done a few jobs where LABC have been involved and only one asked for my gold card. (No P up here)
I think that was more my customer being an argumentative t**ser and the council making him do everything to the letter.

 

[Baddegg]

It’s all good and well the householder taking out indemnity insurance against a whoever did the dodgy electrical work.....but I’d imagine the insurers will certainly be chasing the installer should the worst happen,

 

[telectrix]

part pee is a joke. at the time, it was a golden opportunity to make all electrical work ( excepting simple accessory swaps DIY) only to be carried out by qualified sparks, similar to the gas safe register, but apparently there was not enough clout brought to bear by the trade and insufficient income for the scams and the likes of b&q, who sell electrical equipment to any punter with the cash , to make this work. a case of a horse designed by a useless committee and the result being a a camel.

 

[Midwest]

A certificate or a notification is no guarantee of anything.

One without such simple and essential things, you have to ask why.

 

[Zerax]

part pee is a joke. at the time, it was a golden opportunity to make all electrical work ( excepting simple accessory swaps DIY) only to be carried out by qualified sparks, similar to the gas safe register, but apparently there was not enough clout brought to bear by the trade and insufficient income for the scams and the likes of b&q, who sell electrical equipment to any punter with the cash , to make this work. a case of a horse designed by a useless committee and the result being a a camel.

I mostly agree... however the problem I always have, is that membership of a scam does not prove competence. I know many sparks who are highly competent but not scam members... and I've come across quite a few scam members who are utterly clueless !

It's the same for Gas Safe too... I only trust one person to work on my gas and he's not a member... illegal I know, but I don't take the safety of myself or my family lightly.

 

[richy3333]

Gas safe registered contractor!

 

[ipf]

Gas safe registered contractor!

View attachment 52396

How did you manage to get that socket there, let alone the FSU?......you took the rad off didn't you

 

[Baddegg]

Gas safe registered contractor!

View attachment 52396

Nice shot sir!

 

[telectrix]

Gas safe registered contractor!

View attachment 52396

sparks a shoulda had horizontal cable/s between socket and FCU. wake the silly gas safe sod up.

 

[P10ness]

Maybe a 90 degree valve would leave more room for the plugtop to fit in......

 

[Deleted account]

In answer to your original question

Is part P enforceable?

Yes there are ways to enforce it.

However is part P enforced?

No, however as mentioned solicitors are a lot more clued up on requirements and now ask for EIR and building notification certs as st@ndard.
Not sure when this started happening, but I’ve received a few requests for copies of certs that have been lost.
It’s a really good step in the right direction.
Given time everyone who sells or buys a property will learn the importance of these documents and start employing sparks who are able to notify instead of the man down the pub because they know in the future it will affect there property sales.

 

[Zerax]

In answer to your original question

Is part P enforceable?

Yes there are ways to enforce it.

However is part P enforced?

No, however as mentioned solicitors are a lot more clued up on requirements and now ask for EIR and building notification certs as st@ndard.
Not sure when this started happening, but I’ve received a few requests for copies of certs that have been lost.
It’s a really good step in the right direction.
Given time everyone who sells or buys a property will learn the importance of these documents and start employing sparks who are able to notify instead of the man down the pub because they know in the future it will affect there property sales.

I love your optimism... but I've bought and sold many many houses over the years and the whole thing about having a certificate or not is never ever an issue. I fully expect the vendor to answer that question about any recent electrical works with a NO... I have never heard of any cases of legal action due to people incorrectly filling in that form.

I think if we are to change anything... we need to get building surveyors to actually survey ! and check everything out properly.

 

[Devonchris]

A couple who answered "no" on a standard conveyancing form which asked if they were aware of any disputes about the property they were selling have been found liable for fraudulent misrepresentation and have had to pay their buyers £67,500 in compensation and costs.


The case, which lawyers believe is the first of its kind, is a dire warning for anyone embroiled in a dispute with a neighbour who hopes to sell up and put it behind them. Anyone who sells a house in England and Wales has to fill in the seller's property information form, which has a standard question about disputes.


Guardian Today: the headlines, the analysis, the debate - sent direct to you
Read more
Judgment was delivered at Portsmouth county court last October

 

[Midwest]

I love your optimism... but I've bought and sold many many houses over the years and the whole thing about having a certificate or not is never ever an issue. I fully expect the vendor to answer that question about any recent electrical works with a NO... I have never heard of any cases of legal action due to people incorrectly filling in that form.

I think if we are to change anything... we need to get building surveyors to actually survey ! and check everything out properly.

Wish I had a Pound for every time I've said this...…………….when selling a property, you are required to complete & sign a legal document (as I did last year). One of the questions asked, is have you had any electrical work carried out since 2005. If so, supply copies of electrical certificates & compliance certificates.

Like Paignton pete, I've had old customers chasing me for copies of certificates, funnily enough when selling their house. So as pete said, perhaps things are slowly changing.

 

[Zerax]

Wish I had a Pound for every time I've said this...…………….when selling a property, you are required to complete & sign a legal document (as I did last year). One of the questions asked, is have you had any electrical work carried out since 2005. If so, supply copies of electrical certificates & compliance certificates.

Like Paignton pete, I've had old customers chasing me for copies of certificates, funnily enough when selling their house. So as pete said, perhaps things are slowly changing.

And when the vendor says "I don't have it anymore/can't find it"... what happens then ? The buyer walks away ? The buyer stages a sit-in until the documents turn up ? The vendor can never sell the property ? etc. etc.

Would I not buy a property because there was a missing certificate ? No
Would I ask for a price reduction because of it ? Yes
Would I expect the vendor to say 'don't be ridiculous' ? Yes

But then that's just my view...

 

[Midwest]

And when the vendor says "I don't have it anymore/can't find it"... what happens then ? The buyer walks away ? The buyer stages a sit-in until the documents turn up ? The vendor can never sell the property ? etc. etc.

Would I not buy a property because there was a missing certificate ? No
Would I ask for a price reduction because of it ? Yes
Would I expect the vendor to say 'don't be ridiculous' ? Yes

But then that's just my view...

Well I don't know about that, but my customers were pretty desperate to get a additional copies of certificates.

If there's no certificates, then its down to the buyer to make an informed judgement. We've seen loads of threads on here about work with no documents. EICR's, Regularisation documents, or the buyer just factors that into the negotiations. It may have been done properly & professionally; but if certificates are not available, you have got to ask why.

But my point is, is there is a legal document you sign, which requires you to declare all sorts of things, one of which is electrical work.

 

[snowhead]

But my point is, is there is a legal document you sign, which requires you to declare all sorts of things, one of which is electrical work.

As with the Court case above, it's not the fact that there was or is currently any dispute and with Eleectrical that testing has or hasn't been done, it's signing a document and making a false declaration that's the Offence.

 

[Simon47]

It's nothing at all to do with Part P Part P is only a few words and merely says that electrical work has to be safe.
What is needed is Building Regs notification for certain types of work - which in England since 2013 has been "replacing a CU", "adding a circuit", or "work within the zones of a bathroom". If the works don't fall into any of those 3 categories then no notification is required - at all. But it must still be "safe" to comply with Part P. When the building regs changed in 2005, Appendix 4 made a lot of electrical work notifiable, but in (IIRC) 2013 most of that went and Appendix 2 (it moved) just specified the 3 types of work listed above.
Part P does not even specify compliance with BS7671, aka the wiring regs. The guidance for Part P says that compliance with BS7671 is one way to achieve compliance with part P - and so that's the easiest way to do it. Technically, if you have the skills and qualifications you could do whatever you want as long as you can show that it meets a similar level of safety.

As to your neighbour ...
If all he is doing is extending the RFC and lighting circuits then there is no notification requirement. As long as whoever does the work provides an EIC then that's all that's needed and LABC should be happy. The only hard part is that a DIYer isn't likely to have the equipment required to do the testing and complete an EIC.

 

[Midwest]

The guidance for Part P says that compliance with BS7671 is one way to achieve compliance with part P - and so that's the easiest way to do it. Technically, if you have the skills and qualifications you could do whatever you want as long as you can show that it meets a similar level of safety.

Don't think thats what the 'Secretary of State' says in their document?

 

[Andrew Hunter]

Actually is I not the case that if extending circuits the requirement is for minor works certificate.
Just to prove that the circuit has been tested and is still safe for the characteristics of its origin ie MCB/RCBO

 

[Dustydazzler]

Part Pee only applies to ‘new’ circuits

Very bizarre ill thought out Scam , only serves to line the pockets and boost the pension pots of the scam providers

 

[Simon47]

Don't think thats what the 'Secretary of State' says in their document?

Ah, I see it has changed since I last looked at it. I'm sure it used to be worded along the lines of "compliance can be achieved by compliance with BS7671 - or an equivalent other national standard".
Even if Guidance Document P doesn't say it, Part P itself is open to any means of compliance - so if you have the technical knowledge and skills to do so, you could work to your own standards. I can't really see any situations where that would be easier or better than just working to BS7671 though.

 

[Cbuk2k2]

I love the American legal system. We really need to sit up and take notice.

Maybe once we are out of the shackles of Europe we could get shackled with America as the 51st state.
[automerge]1568912208[/automerge]

I’ve been asked a lot more than I ever have also. I think your right.

It'll be a very sad day if we ever follow in the legal footsteps of the US.