Lighting circuit what to do

[haptism]

This is a new one on me and not so sure how to tackle it. The customer is extending 3 bedrooms, ive quoted to install new lighting circuit for these rooms.

The existing circuit for the upstairs lighting does not have an earth and due to its routing it will need extending to fit round the shape of the new rooms. This existing circuit is supplying j.b's in the loft that spider to the bathroom, hall, and another bedroom; the customer will not agree to have these rooms rewired in t&e as it means making holes in the ceilings ! (----)

If I bring in a new feed to the existing J'bs how do I stand on reconnecting the existing circuits that dont have a cpc ?? Customer is adamant he dont want existing rewired but he wants the lights back on, I will IR each of these existing lighting circuits, if they pass I was thinking to make a note on the EIC that customer refuses rewire, and then reconnect.

 

[Toneyz]

but what have class 2 fittings got to do with RCD protection? RCDs are for additional,protection. in old speak, protection against direct contact with live parts.

The OP posted in post No.8 that the circuit had RCD protection the post was about the omission of a CPC in the existing lighting circuit.

 

[Grant1987]

Yep I do know any new work needs to comply; but I'm just wondering if @Grant1987 is suggesting an existing CU needs updating for an existing install, albeit it would make it safer.

I’m saying that when I go to property to do work which is why I’m there in first instance if you existing

Yep I do know any new work needs to comply; but I'm just wondering if @Grant1987 is suggesting an existing CU needs updating for an existing install, albeit it would make it safer.

sorry for delayed reply all I’m saying is that when I go to customers property before I carry out work on circuits involved I tell them that because the existing consumer unit does not provide additional protection by way of Rcd then I would need to cover my work by installing one. If the consumer unit is an old one with bs 3036 semi enclosed then I recommend a board change, or even if they have the plug in mcbs which I thought were non compliant due to breaking capacities? I’m not an expert but here to learn and give my opinion I’m probably over cautious with my work but like to clarify with customer before carrying out any work and the costs involved.

 

[Deleted account]

I’m saying that when I go to property to do work which is why I’m there in first instance if you existing

sorry for delayed reply all I’m saying is that when I go to customers property before I carry out work on circuits involved I tell them that because the existing consumer unit does not provide additional protection by way of Rcd then I would need to cover my work by installing one. If the consumer unit is an old one with bs 3036 semi enclosed then I recommend a board change, or even if they have the plug in mcbs which I thought were non compliant due to breaking capacities? I’m not an expert but here to learn and give my opinion I’m probably over cautious with my work but like to clarify with customer before carrying out any work and the costs involved.

It’s all in the wording.

Clarify to the customer that:

“You need a surtain amount of protection to do a job.”

“At present your installation does not have that protection.”

Then you would go on to say the best means to achieve this protection

“ fitting a new upgraded CU would give you the required protection to do the job.”

Never say to the customer your rewritable fuse board needs replacing because it’s not up to current regs. That is not true. It’s possibly fine and can continue to be used.

It’s just to achieve the required protection on the work your doing that requires an upgrade.

you are not wrong. It’s just you must clarify to the customer clearly why you are recommending a CU upgrade.

 

[Grant1987]

It’s all in the wording.

Clarify to the customer that:

“You need a surtain amount of protection to do a job.”

“At present your installation does not have that protection.”

Then you would go on to say the best means to achieve this protection

“ fitting a new upgraded CU would give you the required protection to do the job.”

Never say to the customer your rewritable fuse board needs replacing because it’s not up to current regs. That is not true. It’s possibly fine and can continue to be used.

It’s just to achieve the required protection on the work your doing that requires an upgrade.

you are not wrong. It’s just you must clarify to the customer clearly why you are recommending a CU upgrade.

Yes you’re wording is far better than mine. I’m useless on here with my way of explaining things. All that you’re saying here is exactly what I say to my customers which in simple terms your electrical installation is not up to current standards I recommend you bring them up to standard. I don’t just mean with old rewireable fuse boards but the whole electrics in the property I’ll look at everything and don’t like to leave without telling them what is not compliant with current regs regardless of I’m working on that particular circuit things like cooker points over the cooker or socket outlets over draining board. Knowing that I’m the last electrician in that property I like to make sure that I explain all the issues there

 

[Midwest]

What’s wrong with a socket over a draining board

Actually as I recall, as long as it’s 300mm from the sink edge, it’s fine apparently.

When I did small jobs, most of mine were, I did the install to the latest regs. Much as I would like them to have a rewire or CU replacement, that’s down to the customers decision.

 

[Trains]

Wonder if the OP has checked to see if the switch drops are in metal conduit - very typical of an era when no CPC's were in lighting circuits?

 

[Deleted account]

What’s wrong with a socket over a draining board

Actually as I recall, as long as it’s 300mm from the sink edge, it’s fine apparently.

When I did small jobs, most of mine were, I did the install to the latest regs. Much as I would like them to have a rewire or CU replacement, that’s down to the customers decision.

The 300 mm is guidance only. I do stick to the 300mm but in a small kitchen where space is not good, if I have to, I alter the distance to 150 mm.

Agree CU change is down to the customer, but if adding to a socket or lighting circuit the customer must have the RCDprotection as is required by whatever means, otherwise I cannot do the job.
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Yes you’re wording is far better than mine. I’m useless on here with my way of explaining things. All that you’re saying here is exactly what I say to my customers which in simple terms your electrical installation is not up to current standards I recommend you bring them up to standard. I don’t just mean with old rewireable fuse boards but the whole electrics in the property I’ll look at everything and don’t like to leave without telling them what is not compliant with current regs regardless of I’m working on that particular circuit things like cooker points over the cooker or socket outlets over draining board. Knowing that I’m the last electrician in that property I like to make sure that I explain all the issues there

I totally get you with regard to wording.

It’s taken along time for me to get it right. Literally decades.

I’m naturally brilliant at maths , gut absolutely rubbish in my English skills.

Bullet points.

Spaces.

Paragraphs.

That’s how I can get what I mean to say on paper.

Also when I started writing quotes I had to get it right out of nessecity. I would get my wife to check them all. Practice made me able to do this.

I had a 3 hour written exam couple of years ago. I was bricking it. I did the above and passed . Bering in mind it has a 60% fail rate.
I was prouder with myself for actually being able to write what I meant than the content.
I always know the answers but finger it difficult to write it.

 

[Midwest]

The 300 mm is guidance only. I do stick to the 300mm but in a small kitchen where space is not good, if I have to, I alter the distance to 150 mm

I should add, that the guidance now is 300mm from the sink ‘bowl’, not the edge of the drainer bit, like I used to think.

 

[Deleted account]

I should add, that the guidance now is 300mm from the sink ‘bowl’, not the edge of the drainer bit, like I used to think.

That I didn’t know.

 

[Midwest]

That I didn’t know.

Apparently its in the 2019 NHBC guidance, and blue OSG, neither of which I have access to.

 

[telectrix]

Apparently its in the 2019 NHBC guidance, and blue OSG, neither of which I have access to.

send me your bank details and PIN and I'll nick those books for you.

 

[Grant1987]

The 300 mm is guidance only. I do stick to the 300mm but in a small kitchen where space is not good, if I have to, I alter the distance to 150 mm.

Agree CU change is down to the customer, but if adding to a socket or lighting circuit the customer must have the RCDprotection as is required by whatever means, otherwise I cannot do the job.
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I totally get you with regard to wording.

It’s taken along time for me to get it right. Literally decades.

I’m naturally brilliant at maths , gut absolutely rubbish in my English skills.

Bullet points.

Spaces.

Paragraphs.

That’s how I can get what I mean to say on paper.

Also when I started writing quotes I had to get it right out of nessecity. I would get my wife to check them all. Practice made me able to do this.

I had a 3 hour written exam couple of years ago. I was bricking it. I did the above and passed . Bering in mind it has a 60% fail rate.
I was prouder with myself for actually being able to write what I meant than the content.
I always know the answers but finger it difficult to write it.

Haha yes I’m the same, I’ve always had a natural ability at maths but English shocking! My wife also tried/tries to educate me but I just can’t get it to sink in. Fair play to you passing the written exam that’s a big ask for people who struggle with English.
Back to electrics I was under the impression it had to be 300mm from draining board and the 150mm applied to the edge of cooker (scorch zone)?

 

[Deleted account]

Haha yes I’m the same, I’ve always had a natural ability at maths but English shocking! My wife also tried/tries to educate me but I just can’t get it to sink in. Fair play to you passing the written exam that’s a big ask for people who struggle with English.
Back to electrics I was under the impression it had to be 300mm from draining board and the 150mm applied to the edge of cooker (scorch zone)?

The 300mm is not actually in bs7671. So is not a reg.

It is guidance only. Yes it’s good guidance and you need a very good reason not to apply it.

Sometimes common sense is what is required.

 

[Grant1987]

The 300mm is not actually in bs7671. So is not a reg.

It is guidance only. Yes it’s good guidance and you need a very good reason not to apply it.

Sometimes common sense is what is required.

Right ok I’ll bear that in mind but yea like you said common sense is required and I’m over cautious so certainly won’t be putting socket anywhere near water source

 

[Toneyz]

Right ok I’ll bear that in mind but yea like you said common sense is required and I’m over cautious so certainly won’t be putting socket anywhere near water source

However, BS7671 does refer to external influence.

 

[Snailspark]

You say circuit is rcd protected - does the customer know that you need an earth for that to work? Otherwise it’s pointless. New building means new wiring in my book.....

 

[Toneyz]

I think the original post was about connecting a lighting circuit with no CPC onto the new circuit? the new circuit complying with the 18th.

 

[Haworth]

I’ve just kind of come across the same. No CPC on lighting circuit, so advised customer that they are to only use class II fittings and plastic accessories. Also put label on DB indicating said circuit. Advised them of getting either a earth feed in from DB or get a re-wire. They’re not too keen on those options. So put a note on the MWC.