what do these 380v wiring colours mean, I want to use with a 220v vfd. it may have had speed control

[speedystu]

Hello, I am a woodworker who has got a large old power feed, its 380v and i want someone to rewire to a 220v vfd for me, can someone please tell me what these old colour codes mean. I bought the machine in Scotland.I can't find any easy diagrams online.I think its a good few years old.Thank you!

1 2 3 4 5 6 7

 

[James]

Most likely you have a star delta wired motor. The 6 wires plus green/yellow (earth) are the ends of 3 separate windings.

It is a little to complex to explain on a forum but it is unlikley to be possible to use a single phase vsd, you will probably need a 3 phase one or a new motor.

To confirm, can you post a pic of the motor rating plate?

 

[speedystu]

Most likely you have a star delta wired motor. The 6 wires plus green/yellow (earth) are the ends of 3 separate windings.

It is a little to complex to explain on a forum but it is unlikley to be possible to use a single phase vsd, you will probably need a 3 phase one or a new motor.

To confirm, can you post a pic of the motor rating plate?

Thank you, i will do that tommorow.

 

[dmxtothemax]

No you cannot just rewire a three phase motor so it will run on a single phase supply,
you can how ever get a electronic convertor / motor speed control
not cheap mind you but will work splendidly

 

[speedystu]

Most likely you have a star delta wired motor. The 6 wires plus green/yellow (earth) are the ends of 3 separate windings.

It is a little to complex to explain on a forum but it is unlikley to be possible to use a single phase vsd, you will probably need a 3 phase one or a new motor.

To confirm, can you post a pic of the motor rating plate?

Thank you, I think i see what you mean about complicated.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h89TTwlNnpY


I will have to work out what motor to replace it with, guessing if it is a stardelta motor arrangement this would have to have a separate panel with switches and timers? and 3 phase., this is likely too expensive for me to setup. I need to figure out an alternative to closely match performance, if you could let me know what I should look for off the name plate, that would be amazing.

Iv tried to take good pics, its very shiny and hard to read.

The two pics are of the left and right sides of the plate.

If you're not able to read it, please let me know and I will write it out.

Thanks a million.

 

[James]

Ok, it’s got 6 windings inside, wires star, star.
An unusual setup for such a small motor.
Y is the symbol for star and the triangle is the symbol for delta.

It is probably cheaper to replace the motor with a single phase motor.
Unless you need variable speed.
In that case I would go for a 3ph 230v motor and a vfd

I can’t see any numbers after the triangle n the voltage area of the plate.
[automerge]1576428183[/automerge]
Something like this might do you well
You will have to check dimensions and shaft size etc

Bearingboys

Online

www.bearingboys.co.uk

 

[speedystu]

Thank you very much.

These numbers read off the plate.

380yy delta

0.25kw

1370/80 rpm? I can detach from the gearbox

0,75/0,75 A
Co's 84/.62

Ip44

Have read these straight off

I'm new to motors, 3ph 3 phase 240 v motor

What horsepower or or kw.

How do I know the torque required?

It powers 9 wheels via sprockets and chains. It needs to be strong.

I might have to get a custom mounting plate made.

It's worth getting it working but is there a way I can get a suitable 240v motor at variable speed and suitable torque?

Ok, it’s got 6 windings inside, wires star, star.
An unusual setup for such a small motor.
Y is the symbol for star and the triangle is the symbol for delta.

It is probably cheaper to replace the motor with a single phase motor.
Unless you need variable speed.
In that case I would go for a 3ph 230v motor and a vfd

I can’t see any numbers after the triangle n the voltage area of the plate.
[automerge]1576428183[/automerge]
Something like this might do you well
You will have to check dimensions and shaft size etc

Bearingboys

Online

www.bearingboys.co.uk

 

[James]

Take the original to a local industrial motor supplier and ask for a replacement to your spec. They will be able to sell you something suitable.
£100 to £150 would be my guess

 

[speedystu]

Thanks a million for helping
Next step decide if I need variable speed control

Torque, can we tell what it currently is off the plate?


Will do that re supplier thanks!

Take the original to a local industrial motor supplier and ask for a replacement to your spec. They will be able to sell you something suitable.
£100 to £150 would be my guess

 

[Simon47]

I think that motor will connect as 230V delta and run fine from a variable frequency drive - 380V Y is about 225V delta. The 240V single phase input VFDs drives only output 240V 3P, they don't step up to 415V.
I assume there's a terminal box with a cover you can remove ? Please post a photo of the inside of that showing clearly what's currently connected - and if there's a diagram inside the lid, post a photo of that as well.

 

[Lucien Nunes]

I think it's a dual-speed pole-changing motor!

• The speeds are probably 1370 / 680 rpm (not 80, which looks like it means the gearbox output but I don't think that's correct). Please could you look closely at the plate and see if it is in fact 680.
• The configuration is shown as YYΔ I.e. there are two sets of 3-phase windings for the two speeds.
• It gives two equal values for line current (both 0.75A) and two values for cos φ, one of which is much lower than the other (that's usually the low speed).

If it were a single-speed motor designed to run in either 230V delta / 380V star, it would show both voltages and two different line currents. If I am correct, then it requires 380V for normal running in delta and cannot be operated directly from a 230V single-to-three-phase inverter.

Let's see inside the terminal box!

 

[speedystu]

Thanks all, this is great to have your input.

Opened the casted cover and found:
I can retake photo again if wires are too hard to see, seems like 3 are joined across with solder. A german friend translated for me.???

see.

I think that motor will connect as 230V delta and run fine from a variable frequency drive - 380V Y is about 225V delta. The 240V single phase input VFDs drives only output 240V 3P, they don't step up to 415V.
I assume there's a terminal box with a cover you can remove ? Please post a photo of the inside of that showing clearly what's currently connected - and if there's a diagram inside the lid, post a photo of that as well.

[automerge]1576447925[/automerge]

I think it's a dual-speed pole-changing motor!

• The speeds are probably 1370 / 680 rpm (not 80, which looks like it means the gearbox output but I don't think that's correct). Please could you look closely at the plate and see if it is in fact 680.
• The configuration is shown as YYΔ I.e. there are two sets of 3-phase windings for the two speeds.
• It gives two equal values for line current (both 0.75A) and two values for cos φ, one of which is much lower than the other (that's usually the low speed).

If it were a single-speed motor designed to run in either 230V delta / 380V star, it would show both voltages and two different line currents. If I am correct, then it requires 380V for normal running in delta and cannot be operated directly from a 230V single-to-three-phase inverter.

Let's see inside the terminal box!

Thank you
i just checked,you're right it is 680 (very hard to see), there are nine wheels with sprockets and chain, is that the speed control? the speed needed, im guessing 50 - 100 rpm

 

[Lucien Nunes]

The terminal diagram cast into the cover is a generic one, showing the normal options of star for high voltage and delta for low. However, it may not actually apply to your motor, as such a configuration would invariably also be indicated by the two voltages being stamped on the plate, whereas you only have 380V.

Do you have a multimeter? If so, please could you confirm which terminals show continuity to which others.

If you look at the black terminal block moulding there are terminal labels moulded in next to the studs. Probably something like:
U1-V1-W1
V2-W2-U2
Or its mirror image.

If you have continuity U1-U2 and V1-V2 and W1-W2 but not U1-V1 then the dual speed thing may be a red herring.

If you have continuity U1-V1-W1 and U2-V2-W2 but not U1-U2 then it is indeed a dual winding, dual speed motor. The speeds would be selected with a 3-pole changeover switch on the panel.

 

[speedystu]

The terminal diagram cast into the cover is a generic one, showing the normal options of star for high voltage and delta for low. However, it may not actually apply to your motor, as such a configuration would invariably also be indicated by the two voltages being stamped on the plate, whereas you only have 380V.

Do you have a multimeter? If so, please could you confirm which terminals show continuity to which others.

If you look at the black terminal block moulding there are terminal labels moulded in next to the studs. Probably something like:
U1-V1-W1
V2-W2-U2
Or its mirror image.

If you have continuity U1-U2 and V1-V2 and W1-W2 but not U1-V1 then the dual speed thing may be a red herring.

If you have continuity U1-V1-W1 and U2-V2-W2 but not U1-U2 then it is indeed a dual winding, dual speed motor. The speeds would be selected with a 3-pole changeover switch on the panel.

Thank you very much for taking the time to explain this, I don't have a multimeter but either way I have to organise a single phase 240v motor(preferably with speed control.
I don't have access to 3 phase.

How do I work out what is a good replacement, is another generic .25 kw motor ( with correct form factor (and shaft location) with speed of
1370 / 680 rpm the way to go?

 

[speedystu]

Thank you very much for taking the time to explain this, I don't have a multimeter but either way I have to organise a single phase 240v motor(preferably with speed control.
I don't have access to 3 phase.

How do I work out what is a good replacement, is another generic .25 kw motor ( with correct form factor (and shaft location) with speed of
1370 / 680 rpm the way to go?

Is this on the right track?

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hydraulicmegastore.com

 

[Lucien Nunes]

On the subject of the original motor, I've missed a trick. I'm convinced now it's a Dahlander consequent pole 2-speed motor, which runs in double-star at full speed and in series delta at low speed with equal torque. You won't need the low speed mode as the VSD will do that for you, so you could run it on a 230V inverter by swapping the internal interconnections between the two winding groups so that the same relative coil polarities as are currently obtained in star are obtained in delta instead. That would give you a single-speed, 230V delta motor of full power rating. If you wanted to go down this route, I would need to see very detailed pics of the internal winding leadouts, and we would have to pick through them with a continuity tester very carefully to ensure we make the right interconnections.

 

[speedystu]

On the subject of the original motor, I've missed a trick. I'm convinced now it's a Dahlander consequent pole 2-speed motor, which runs in double-star at full speed and in series delta at low speed with equal torque. You won't need the low speed mode as the VSD will do that for you, so you could run it on a 230V inverter by swapping the internal interconnections between the two winding groups so that the same relative coil polarities as are currently obtained in star are obtained in delta instead. That would give you a single-speed, 230V delta motor of full power rating. If you wanted to go down this route, I would need to see very detailed pics of the internal winding leadouts, and we would have to pick through them with a continuity tester very carefully to ensure we make the right interconnections.

You're Brilliant! if you're up for a challenge I can follow your instructions to a tee,its a beast of a power feed, aprox 120 kg. I will need to get a mulitmeter/continuity tester, I presume I need to unmount from the gearbox and open it up and take pics of the windings?
Im a trained engineering technician but complicated electrics not my forte

 

[Lucien Nunes]

Disclaimer:
Some time will need to be invested to find out whether it is possible at all.
There is a high risk of accidental error with the windings as there are millions of permutations of 12 wires (six windings each with two ends). If they get mixed up or we mis-identify them, it will be slow and tricky to identify the proper phasing again without specialist equipment. Getting one winding out of phase for example, could result in poor torque, blown fuses, burnout, inverter destruction or all of the above. So proceed at your own risk.

As there only seems to be one lead from inside the motor to each terminal stud (please confirm), the connections must be within the end bell so you would have to get inside there to swap them over. If they are hidden or bound up with winding tape it could be tricky. I suppose you've nothing to lose by looking inside though.

@marconi @Marvo @darkwood and anyone else please check my logic:

a) It has to be a Dahlander connection as-is.
b) There are 6 leads in the terminal box for 12 winding ends so they must be paired internally into series delta.
c) The edges of the delta (2U, 2V, 2W) can remain connected as-is, as this gives the right relative polarity of both windings of each phase for high-speed.
d) The corners of the delta (1U, 1V, 1W) need to be split so that the two windings of each phase can be paralleled.
e) The paralleled windings can then be connected in delta to make a 3-lead 230V motor.

One snag we have now is that we don't know for certain which set of leads are the edges and which are the corners. We might assume that terminal block 1U= winding U1 = corner terminal etc but there's no guarantee because the original speed switching has been disconnected. If we can see the windings leading out from their respective coils, that's fine. Otherwise we might have to use a battery and compass in the bore, or feed in low voltage AC e.g. from a bell transformer and find coil phasing by searching with a voltmeter.

I'll post a diagram later.

 

[speedystu]

Disclaimer:
Some time will need to be invested to find out whether it is possible at all.
There is a high risk of accidental error with the windings as there are millions of permutations of 12 wires (six windings each with two ends). If they get mixed up or we mis-identify them, it will be slow and tricky to identify the proper phasing again without specialist equipment. Getting one winding out of phase for example, could result in poor torque, blown fuses, burnout, inverter destruction or all of the above. So proceed at your own risk.

As there only seems to be one lead from inside the motor to each terminal stud (please confirm), the connections must be within the end bell so you would have to get inside there to swap them over. If they are hidden or bound up with winding tape it could be tricky. I suppose you've nothing to lose by looking inside though.

@marconi @Marvo @darkwood and anyone else please check my logic:

a) It has to be a Dahlander connection as-is.
b) There are 6 leads in the terminal box for 12 winding ends so they must be paired internally into series delta.
c) The edges of the delta (2U, 2V, 2W) can remain connected as-is, as this gives the right relative polarity of both windings of each phase for high-speed.
d) The corners of the delta (1U, 1V, 1W) need to be split so that the two windings of each phase can be paralleled.
e) The paralleled windings can then be connected in delta to make a 3-lead 230V motor.

One snag we have now is that we don't know for certain which set of leads are the edges and which are the corners. We might assume that terminal block 1U= winding U1 = corner terminal etc but there's no guarantee because the original speed switching has been disconnected. If we can see the windings leading out from their respective coils, that's fine. Otherwise we might have to use a battery and compass in the bore, or feed in low voltage AC e.g. from a bell transformer and find coil phasing by searching with a voltmeter.

I'll post a diagram later.

Mega cool of you and the forum! I fully accept this might not be possible or work at all. I will get to work removing it from gearbox and sharing all the info depth info u need. I wanted to know more about motors, this is a premium learning exercise!
X mas is coming up fast, understand if this waits until NY. Again amazingly cool of you and the forum.

 

[James]

wow, you are getting not beyond my understanding but certainly out of my comfort zone.

not sure if I understand correctly what you are referring to when describing the windings but have got as far as this poorly drawn representation. left (as is) right (convert to)

am I with you so far?

its been a long time since I was sat in a hall figuring out if it was the left hand or right hand that I should be putting into silly positions for the solution.

 

[marconi]

I reckon you have this motor winding set up(Dahlander/pole changing) as in the attachment.

The six wires are brought out to the 6 terminals as the triplets 1V, 1U and 1W and 2U, 2V and 2W and connected as in the diagram at attachment.

To effect pole changing one swaps the 3 lines L1, L2 and L3 between these triplets and when the lines are connected to 2U, 2V and 2W one connects 1U, 1V and 1W together.

3 Lines to the series delta is for slow speed by making an 8 pole(4 pole pairs) machine with speed of 750 rpm and 3 lines in parallel star for 4 pole (2 pole pairs) with sync speed of 1500 rpm.
[automerge]1576526838[/automerge]
The motor terminal is:
W2 U2 V2
U1 V1 W1

but photographed upside down

W1(Blue) V1(Green) U1(Orange)
V2(Brown) U2(Black) W2(Gray/Light Brown)

 

[speedystu]

I reckon you have this motor winding set up(Dahlander/pole changing) as in the attachment.

The six wires are brought out to the 6 terminals as the triplets 1V, 1U and 1W and 2U, 2V and 2W and connected as in the diagram at attachment.

To effect pole changing one swaps the 3 lines L1, L2 and L3 between these triplets and when the lines are connected to 2U, 2V and 2W one connects 1U, 1V and 1W together.

3 Lines to the series delta is for slow speed by making an 8 pole(4 pole pairs) machine with speed of 750 rpm and 3 lines in parallel star for 4 pole (2 pole pairs) with sync speed of 1500 rpm.
[automerge]1576526838[/automerge]
The motor terminal is:
W2 U2 V2
U1 V1 W1

but photographed upside down

W1(Blue) V1(Green) U1(Orange)
V2(Brown) U2(Black) W2(Gray/Light Brown)

thanks very much!

does that mean that this is not a
star delta wired motor? or that is the same as a
Dahlander/pole changing

how does the pole changing happen? is it in a fixed position by replacing physical wires or a switch of somekind?

 

[marconi]

The motor terminal is:
W2 U2 V2
U1 V1 W1

but photographed upside down

W1(Blue) V1(Green) U1(Orange)
V2(Brown) U2(Black) W2(Gray/Light Brown)

SpeedtStu - As LN said and I concur, the motor windings are arranged for (Dhalinder pole change )and not star then delta for start then run operation. Could you tell us how many internal wires are attached to each terminal - it looks like only one indicating as LN said that there are internal connections between "2U-2V, 2V-2W and 2U -2W; but they may be other connections under the terminal block. Could you undo the two chrome slotted screws and have a look underneath for any more connections?

Otherwise the motor will have to opened up to access these pairings, severe them and reconnect them differently to form a parallel delta arrangement of windings able to be energised at 230V line-to-line.

Sorry rushed at the moment have to go picj the wife up from choir practice - the pole chamging is done by switching the incoming 3 lines between tge triplets I mentioned earlier and when in one of those configurations connecting together three nodes as I mentioned. If yu stare at the doagram I showed and imagined defroning it by pulling 2U, "2V and 2W in three directions angles 120 degrees apart away from the controid you can see how it can swap between series delta and parallely star and the 1U and 1W and 1U vertices come together .

 

[speedystu]

The motor terminal is:
W2 U2 V2
U1 V1 W1

but photographed upside down

W1(Blue) V1(Green) U1(Orange)
V2(Brown) U2(Black) W2(Gray/Light Brown)

SpeedtStu - Could you tell us how many internal wires are attached to each terminal - it looks like only one indicating as LN said that there are internal connections between "2U-2V, 2V-2W and 2U -2W; but they may be other connections under the terminal block. Could you undo the two chrome slotted screws and have a look underneath for any more connections?

Otherwise the motor will have to opened up to access these pairings, severe them and reconnect them differently to form a parallel delta arrangement of windings able to be energised at 230V line-to-line.

i will do that tomorrow in good light, i can do all of the above with instructions. You're all superstars!

 

[marconi]

See attached image first.

If one takes the transform of the star configuration to the delta configuration
and use the nomenclature u1 and u2 as the start an ends of U1 and u3 and u4 as the start and ends of winding U2 - similarly for V1, V2, W1 and W2, then for star

L1 - u1, L2 - v1, L3- w1 and star is u2 - v2 - w2.

Transforming to delta the winding ends are connected:

L1 - u1 and L2 - u2
L2 - v1 and L3 - v2
L3 - w1 and L1 -w2

If one uses the same transform for the parallel star arrangement to a parallel delta arrangement one has for star:

L1 - u4 - v1
L2 - v4 - w1
L3 - w4 - u1

and star point is u2 - u3 - v2 - v3 - w2 - w3

which transforms to a delta of:

L1/2U terminal - u2 - w3 - (u4 - v1)
L2/2V terminal - v2 - u3 - (w1 - v4)
L3/2W terminal - v3 - w2 - (u1 - w4)

where the winding ends in brackets () are already connected as required to L1, L2 or L3 but those not in brackets viz u2, u3, v2, v3, w2, w3 are not connected as required. At the moment the connections are made (u2-u3), (v2-v3) and (w2-w3) which are the corners of the low speed delta configuration. As Lucien said these pairings need to be accessed, severed and reconnected as shown above in bold.

Or I have made a complete Horlicks.....

 

[speedystu]

See:

How to connect 3 phase motors in star and delta connection - Quora - https://www.quora.com/How-do-I-connect-3-phase-motors-in-star-and-delta-connection

If one takes the transform of the star configuration to the delta configuration
and use the nomenclature u1 and u2 as the start an ends of U1 and u3 and u4 as the start and ends of winding U2 - similarly for V1, V2, W1 and W2, then for star

L1 - u1, L2 - v1, L3- w1 and star is u2 - v2 - w2.

Transforming to delta the winding ends are connected:

L1 - u1 and L2 - u2
L2 - v1 and L2 - v2
L3 - w1 and L1 -w2

If one uses the same transform for the parallel star arrangement to a parallel delta arrangement one has for star:

L1 - u4 - v1
L2 - v4 - w1
L3 - w4 - u1

and star point is u2 - u3 - v2 - v3 - w2 - w3

which transforms to a delta of:

L1/2U terminal - u2 - w3 - (u4 - v1)
L2/2V terminal - v2 - u3 - (w1 - v4)
L3/2W terminal - v3 - w2 - (u1 - w4)

where the winding ends in brackets () are already connected as required to L1, L2 or L3 but those not in brackets viz u2, u3, v2, v3, w2, w3 are not connected as required. At the moment the connections are made (u2-u3), (v2-v3) and (w2-w3) which are the corners of the low speed delta configuration. As Lucien said these pairings need to be accessed, severed and reconnected as shown above in bold.

Or I have made a complete Horlicks.....

I am sorting out a multimeter as you guys wow me again, this is very cool of you all. I'll do my best to pull it off. Thanks again!

 

[marconi]

Lucien: My analysis indicates that the windings (U1, V1, W1) are wound in the same way so that the same current flowing from 1 to 2 produces the same direction of magnetic field.

The windings (U2, V2, W2) are wound in the opposite direction to U1, V1, W1 which means to produce the same direction of magnetic field as U1, V1, W1 the current must flow 4 to 3.

To produce a conventional pole pairs using parallel delta, the windings (UV, UW, VW) are connected in parallel by connecting 1 to 4 and 2 to 3; this creates the same direction of magnetic field in each coil. This is what is seen in my #25 (if you draw it out - see my scribbled attachment and note #). The current flow then through say the pair V1 and W3 is in opposite directions but the coils are wound opposite way to each other so magnetic field combine. The Ampturns of V1 and W3 are in the same direction.

This is just what we want for the 230V line to line parallel delta configuration for the creation of conventional pole pairs (high speed).

As a quick check slow speed by consequent pole generation would now be series star but require 400V line to line and the coils would be connected in series as say u1 U1 u2 w3 W2 w4.

Note #: The arrows indicate the magnetic field direction for current flows 1 to 2 or 3 to 4.

I could have made a mistake though so do point it/them out to me ....
[automerge]1576570129[/automerge]

wow, you are getting not beyond my understanding but certainly out of my comfort zone.

not sure if I understand correctly what you are referring to when describing the windings but have got as far as this poorly drawn representation. left (as is) right (convert to)

am I with you so far?




James - see attachment in my #26. LN is suggesting (cleverly) converting the 380V line to line parallel star high sync speed winding configuration as is (-you showed a series star) into a to be 230v line to line parallel delta (which you did draw).

 

[Lucien Nunes]

Crikey, I was only asking for a yes or no!
I'll look later, I have two machine breakdowns which are holding a job up.

In the meantime, I'll add a note about safety. If the original controls are missing and being replaced by the inverter, you are modifying the machine in a safety-critical way. There are all sorts of regulatory implications if you use the machine in a place of work or sell it. If the new controls and mode of operation are not compliant (and proven to be compliant), it may be a breach of various regs to install, operate or sell it. I will leave all those implications for you to work out. My only interest here is to investigate the motor and identify whether it can be reconfigured to run on 230V.

 

[speedystu]

Crikey, I was only asking for a yes or no!
I'll look later, I have two machine breakdowns which are holding a job up.

In the meantime, I'll add a note about safety. If the original controls are missing and being replaced by the inverter, you are modifying the machine in a safety-critical way. There are all sorts of regulatory implications if you use the machine in a place of work or sell it. If the new controls and mode of operation are not compliant (and proven to be compliant), it may be a breach of various regs to install, operate or sell it. I will leave all those implications for you to work out. My only interest here is to investigate the motor and identify whether it can be reconfigured to run on 230V.

Thanks everything so far. To confirm this will only be used in my own private workshop I've ordered a multimeter today and will start getting all the pics together, it would be a very cool project to work with you all on. Great piece of machinery to have working.

 

[Lucien Nunes]

Fixed my breakdowns, one was an intermittent internal break in an encoder cable, other was a configuration problem.

You are correct that star-delta pole-changing is fundamentally different from star-delta starting. Star-delta starting is a method applied to a conventional 3-phase motor, while pole-changing is a function of a specially built 2-speed motor. What they have in common is the use of switching to rearrange the winding connections.

Star-delta starting is a basic soft-start method used with regular single-speed 3-phase motors that have one group of three windings rated for the full line-line voltage. When connected in star for starting, each 400V winding receives only 230V, reducing the starting current and torque. After a sufficient run-up time, the starter reconnects the windings into delta so that each winding receives the full 400V and full torque is available.

A pole-changing motor is specially constructed to deliver two speeds at the turn of a switch. The Dahlander configuration provides a simple and convienent way to alter the phasing and the voltage per winding with the minimum of switch contacts, suitable for motors with 2:1 speed ratio and windings rated for the line-neutral voltage. It does not offer a soft-start as such, which would require a more extensive switching system and probably be redundant on a typical small pole-changing motor.

Inverter drives make both techniques obsolete, because they can provide both soft starting and selectable fixed running speeds. For use with a 400V output inverter, a motor originally wired for star-delta starting can be left in delta (full power) and a Dahlander motor can be left in star (high speed) and controlled exclusively by the VFD. The standard motor could optionally be reconfigured for 690V in star, and the Dahlander motor 230V in delta, which is what we are looking to achieve here.

 

[speedystu]

Fixed my breakdowns, one was an intermittent internal break in an encoder cable, other was a configuration problem.

You are correct that star-delta pole-changing is fundamentally different from star-delta starting. Star-delta starting is a method applied to a conventional 3-phase motor, while pole-changing is a function of a specially built 2-speed motor. What they have in common is the use of switching to rearrange the winding connections.

Star-delta starting is a basic soft-start method used with regular single-speed 3-phase motors that have one group of three windings rated for the full line-line voltage. When connected in star for starting, each 400V winding receives only 230V, reducing the starting current and torque. After a sufficient run-up time, the starter reconnects the windings into delta so that each winding receives the full 400V and full torque is available.

A pole-changing motor is specially constructed to deliver two speeds at the turn of a switch. The Dahlander configuration provides a simple and convienent way to alter the phasing and the voltage per winding with the minimum of switch contacts, suitable for motors with 2:1 speed ratio and windings rated for the line-neutral voltage. It does not offer a soft-start as such, which would require a more extensive switching system and probably be redundant on a typical small pole-changing motor.

Inverter drives make both techniques obsolete, because they can provide both soft starting and selectable fixed running speeds. For use with a 400V output inverter, a motor originally wired for star-delta starting can be left in delta (full power) and a Dahlander motor can be left in star (high speed) and controlled exclusively by the VFD. The standard motor could optionally be reconfigured for 690V in star, and the Dahlander motor 230V in delta, which is what we are looking to achieve here.

That's great you got the breakdowns sorted. This explanation is excellent, I will study it carefully. One question the star delta diagrams, those shapes(star and delta) are they theoretical or are they like that somewhere inside the casings? Im very grateful for the amazing expertise of you all, ill report back when i get the pics and multimeter, ill carefully remove it from the gearbox so i can look at it inside in the warmth with good light
thanks very much all!

 

[Simon47]

Star and Delta refer to the shape when drawn on the diagram.
Internally the windings are very different from the diagram, and realistically none of the arrangements look any different to each other. To start with, while each winding is shown as a single element on the diagram, in reality it will comprise multiple coils on the stator.
On a 2 pole motor, there will be two coils/phase - diametrically opposite each other in the stator. A 4 pole motor will have 4 coils - 90˚ apart round the stator. And so on. So a 4 pole 3 phase motor will have 12 coils in it - 3 sets (one set/phase) of 4 coils, with the 4 coils being connected in series and/or parallel according to the voltage rating needed and the coil design.

I had a bit of a look for some diagrams. This blog seems interesting, when you get to the bottom, click on the links for the next ones.
Then I came across this article where someone has rewound a motor. It's single phase, but the basic principles are the same for a 3 phase motor - they just have three phases worth of identical windings rather than different run and start (or run/start) windings.

 

[speedystu]

Star and Delta refer to the shape when drawn on the diagram.
Internally the windings are very different from the diagram, and realistically none of the arrangements look any different to each other. To start with, while each winding is shown as a single element on the diagram, in reality it will comprise multiple coils on the stator.
On a 2 pole motor, there will be two coils/phase - diametrically opposite each other in the stator. A 4 pole motor will have 4 coils - 90˚ apart round the stator. And so on. So a 4 pole 3 phase motor will have 12 coils in it - 3 sets (one set/phase) of 4 coils, with the 4 coils being connected in series and/or parallel according to the voltage rating needed and the coil design.

I had a bit of a look for some diagrams. This blog seems interesting, when you get to the bottom, click on the links for the next ones.
Then I came across this article where someone has rewound a motor. It's single phase, but the basic principles are the same for a 3 phase motor - they just have three phases worth of identical windings rather than different run and start (or run/start) windings.

Thanks again this is great. I'll check out the links now too. Will have pics and multimeter in the next few days. Looking forward to investigating this with all of your help. Thanks!!!

 

[speedystu]

Thanks again this is great. I'll check out the links now too. Will have pics and multimeter in the next few days. Looking forward to investigating this with all of your help. Thanks!!!

Hi all

I was able to remove the motor from the worm/bevel gears( i hope i did not damage them)

What should be my plan of attack, I am still waiting for a multimeter to arrive from screwfix.

How much of it should I dissassemble and take pics of?
Thanks all

 

[Darkwood]

Hi, I am a bit late to the party here and think Lucien has done as always an excellent job in helping you out, these kind of motors are ones I am not all too familiar with so I will reserve comment although I will make a point I don't think has been raised here.
Putting VSD's to run older motors comes with many risks, the windings themselves are not designed to cope with modern VSD control methods, breakdown of the windings can subsequently occur causing premature failure as well as circulating eddies running through the motor shaft and bearings which can see them fail prematurely too.

I would suggest because of the complexity and age of this motor you have here it would be infact cheaper (if we are talking time and money invested) to just buy a new motor and drive, a good motor service repair company may advice to replace the gears too or they may be able to adapt the new motor to suit to fit the old.

I would get a costing with options before you start going down the road of simply slapping a VSD control upfront of this motor or you may find out you are ending up paying out twice because of a bit of short sightedness.

PS - I will parrot Luciens concerns regarding compliance here although if this is a private project at home then you really are not subject to them, having said that though it is vital you have a very good knowledge of them and understand all the aspects of risk and safety that goes with changing/adapting the control system here, ignorance in this department could be life threatening in areas you fail to understand thus putting yourself at risk.

 

[speedystu]

Thanks for taking a look.

Yes agree "short sightedness" would be a pity but on this occasion

Hi, I am a bit late to the party here and think Lucien has done as always an excellent job in helping you out, these kind of motors are ones I am not all too familiar with so I will reserve comment although I will make a point I don't think has been raised here.
Putting VSD's to run older motors comes with many risks, the windings themselves are not designed to cope with modern VSD control methods, breakdown of the windings can subsequently occur causing premature failure as well as circulating eddies running through the motor shaft and bearings which can see them fail prematurely too.

I would suggest because of the complexity and age of this motor you have here it would be infact cheaper (if we are talking time and money invested) to just buy a new motor and drive, a good motor service repair company may advice to replace the gears too or they may be able to adapt the new motor to suit to fit the old.

I would get a costing with options before you start going down the road of simply slapping a VSD control upfront of this motor or you may find out you are ending up paying out twice because of a bit of short sightedness.

PS - I will parrot Luciens concerns regarding compliance here although if this is a private project at home then you really are not subject to them, having said that though it is vital you have a very good knowledge of them and understand all the aspects of risk and safety that goes with changing/adapting the control system here, ignorance in this department could be life threatening in areas you fail to understand thus putting yourself at risk.

Thanks for your input, we have spoken earlier in the thread about most of these items.

One question for me is if the motor is convertible (by me with the forums help) and works and fails prematurely will it take the vfd with it as well?
is it a very dangerous fire or electrical or mechanical hazard?

Safety is the highest concern - This actually to get a safety device working.

Is it worth opening it up so everyone can see what it is?
Id be interested to learn about the motor at least.

And then deciding a yay or naay on whether to proceed?

Ps I am very impressed by the forum and its members, a super professional and knowledgable resource.









That would be a waste straight out of the box,

 

[Simon47]

It would be unlikely to "take out" the VFD, more likely it would just trip.

 

[Megawatt]

View attachment 54624
Hello, I am a woodworker who has got a large old power feed, its 380v and i want someone to rewire to a 220v vfd for me, can someone please tell me what these old colour codes mean. I bought the machine in Scotland.I can't find any easy diagrams online.I think its a good few years old.Thank you!

1 2 3 4 5 6 7

Does that motors wires actually have numbers on them

 

[speedystu]

Does that motors wires actually have numbers on them

The wires going into the motor do not have any visable numbers on them.
I have counted all the wires and marked where they are connected.

 

[Lucien Nunes]

The colours of the outgoing cables don't tell us anything; they are the usual harmonised phase colours (black, brown, grey) for one winding group, and three other random colours for the other group. You can remove these for now as they will be in the way, but don't disturb the internal connections from the windings.

I hadn't been able to see that there were 9 winding ends in the terminal box. If the two leads on each of UA, VA, WA are the corners of the delta (a.k.a. U1, V1, W1) then those simply need making up into different pairs, and the 230V reconfiguration is complete without having to open the motor. If they are the edges (a.k.a. U2, V2, W2) and the single leads on UB, VB, WB are internally jointed to the corners, we're no further forward and need to get at those internal joints. So it looks like we have a 50% chance that it's a doddle. Now I have to think of a simple test to identify them with minimal equipment and no 3-phase mains.

Referring back to your previous post, no, there's no physical manifestation of star or delta layout in the windings. Those shapes refer to the appearance of the theoretical circuit diagram when particular combinations of winding ends are connected together.

Darkwood makes a good point; not all motors are happy with VFD output waveforms. The short risetimes stress the insulation and older motors sometimes breaks down as a result. I've never actually had this problem myself yet, so I tend to overlook it.

 

[Darkwood]

With regards to the VSD failing if the windings do, some smaller cost effective VSD are not short circuit protected and will likely fail in the event of a short, I found this particularly on small models converting 1ph to 3ph, do not assume as is usual for VSD's that they are protected, I would confirm it before purchasing.

 

[speedystu]

Thanks for that

Think someone did a bodge fix (semi permanent fix) on the shaft instead of a set screw, if we have to take apart ill drill and retap. Will have a multimeter soon, will patiently await further instructions. As always thanks a million, I have learnt loads already

 

[Megawatt]

The colours of the outgoing cables don't tell us anything; they are the usual harmonised phase colours (black, brown, grey) for one winding group, and three other random colours for the other group. You can remove these for now as they will be in the way, but don't disturb the internal connections from the windings.

I hadn't been able to see that there were 9 winding ends in the terminal box. If the two leads on each of UA, VA, WA are the corners of the delta (a.k.a. U1, V1, W1) then those simply need making up into different pairs, and the 230V reconfiguration is complete without having to open the motor. If they are the edges (a.k.a. U2, V2, W2) and the single leads on UB, VB, WB are internally jointed to the corners, we're no further forward and need to get at those internal joints. So it looks like we have a 50% chance that it's a doddle. Now I have to think of a simple test to identify them with minimal equipment and no 3-phase mains.

Referring back to your previous post, no, there's no physical manifestation of star or delta layout in the windings. Those shapes refer to the appearance of the theoretical circuit diagram when particular combinations of winding ends are connected together.

Darkwood makes a good point; not all motors are happy with VFD output waveforms. The short risetimes stress the insulation and older motors sometimes breaks down as a result. I've never actually had this problem myself yet, so I tend to overlook it.

Couldn’t the motor be wired star or delta using the factory jumpers and VFD’s can’t be put in pipe with other motors or bundled up, the EMF really makes the VFD’s do crazy things

 

[speedystu]

Met with these very important motors this eve with the kids. Was not that uber confident when I looked up and saw big looking pillow block bearings and the open air basket swinging at full height!! back down to earth with no bang thankfully!!!!
Thanks all for your help so far!!

 

[Lucien Nunes]

It's sometimes a surprise just how safe fairground rides are overall. A report by the HSE a few years back found that people were statistically 12 times less likely to meet a serious accident riding the machines than while walking to the ground in the first place. And, that includes the numpties who force their safety bars open and climb out of their seats etc. If you discount those, it's safer still.

I can't get used to these big VFDs, they just don't go with the smell of burgers, candy floss and mown grass. Give me a 10hp 110V DC shunt motor, a faceplate starter and a Gardner 5LW rumbling gently in the background. I've got some video I shot 30 years ago at dusk, the whole gaff ablaze with traditional coloured filament lamps, packed with punters and throbbing to proper rock'n'roll. There's a magical moment as I'm focused on the ammeter on the old Lister switchboard watching it swing over and hearing the rack on the JP4 opening up as we pull away on 2nd stud. Extreme thrill stuff is all very well but it hasn't got the soul.

 

[speedystu]

It's sometimes a surprise just how safe fairground rides are overall. A report by the HSE a few years back found that people were statistically 12 times less likely to meet a serious accident riding the machines than while walking to the ground in the first place. And, that includes the numpties who force their safety bars open and climb out of their seats etc. If you discount those, it's safer still.

I can't get used to these big VFDs, they just don't go with the smell of burgers, candy floss and mown grass. Give me a 10hp 110V DC shunt motor, a faceplate starter and a Gardner 5LW rumbling gently in the background. I've got some video I shot 30 years ago at dusk, the whole gaff ablaze with traditional coloured filament lamps, packed with punters and throbbing to proper rock'n'roll. There's a magical moment as I'm focused on the ammeter on the old Lister switchboard watching it swing over and hearing the rack on the JP4 opening up as we pull away on 2nd stud. Extreme thrill stuff is all very well but it hasn't got the soul.

Good memories! What also was very cool was the robot donut machine. I said to her cool machine and she gave me a very strange look! I didn't ask her about motors

 

[marconi]

My analysis is attached - if you can decipher my drawings. U1, V1 and W1 coils are vertical between terminals and U2, V2 and W3 are diagonal.

The 'X' indicate the connections to be broken and the red lines indicate new connections to from the parallel delta.

To find the end of the diagonal coils, colour code the two wires to each upper terminal say red red, blue blue and yellow yellow so you know where they go to originally.

Then disconnect from the upper terminals so you have 6 free winding ends. Measure resistance as shown 1, then 2 and finally 3. Measurement 1 will be one coil resistance (R), 2 will be 2R and 3 with be infinity.

 

[Megawatt]

My analysis is attached - if you can decipher my drawings. U1, V1 and W1 coils are vertical between terminals and U2, V2 and W3 are diagonal.

The 'X' indicate the connections to be broken and the red lines indicate new connections to from the parallel delta.

To find the end of the diagonal coils, colour code the two wires to each upper terminal say red red, blue blue and yellow yellow so you know where they go to originally.

Then disconnect from the upper terminals so you have 6 free winding ends. Measure resistance as shown 1, then 2 and finally 3. Measurement 1 will be one coil resistance (R), 2 will be 2R and 3 with be infinity.

Yes I agree with Marconi, with what he said ??

 

[speedystu]

When i

With regards to the VSD failing if the windings do, some smaller cost effective VSD are not short circuit protected and will likely fail in the event of a short, I found this particularly on small models converting 1ph to 3ph, do not assume as is usual for VSD's that they are protected, I would confirm it before purchasing.

Thanks v much,very good point! if and when I get to the vfd purchasing I'll double check with you guys!some of the sellers are good to claim most things. Would be great to get it right first time

 

[Lucien Nunes]

I'm offline for a while and can't view the pics or reply in detail, but a quick q for Marconi: It's likely that the terminals with two leads are the corners, i.e. U1 = UA, U2 = UB etc. But what hard evidence do we have? If the other terminals are the corners, rearranging the leads as per your suggestion will make a crazy zig-zag winding that might look like a short circuit to the VFD.