The point of being qualified?

[DoubleInsulated]

Hello all.

Been a sparky since I left school (which is rather a long time ago). 17th Edition, and currently not planning to bother with the 18th. You get to a point in life where hoop jumping becomes tiresome!

My point is this. I occasionally work for a local security company as a sub contractor (usually first fixing CCTV for him) and he FREQUENTLY installs his own electrical points using his totally untrained engineers.

Now this can be extra lighting, sockets, or altering existing installations. I can tell you now, it NEVER complies with regs.

I do not certify (mainly because I just don't do enough sparking these days). Therefore, I usually refuse to do his electrical work.

On the occasions I have done his electrical installations, it is on the provision that he gets the work certified by a third party at the end of the job. He usually then gets more money from the client for this testing..... then NEVER does it.
This might be private work, but it's frequently for the local council.

I try to cover myself by highlighting this work must be certified on my invoices (it's usually only alterations within a room or similar), and also email him and relevant members of his company, reminding them they must certify. But they don't.

I now will not work for him.

My point is, this man, and his (massively untrained) staff frequently break installation regulations and get away with it.
I have known him install fire alarm systems in public buildings that are poorly designed, untested and do not comply in the slightest.

Who cares? Nobody ever pulls him up on it. Unless he is part of a testing body... who is ever going to challenge him?

Yes, if a fire happens or God forbid, someone is injured or killed, he may get caught, but it's a slim 'if'.

Frustrates me. Who can you tell? Who cares?
I anonymously emailed the local building inspector last year regarding a poor fire alarm installation and they did zip.

It's wrong on all levels. Only those willing to pay to be inspected, then get pulled up for poor practices.

I would be interested to know your opinions

 

[Pete999]

Hello all.

Been a sparky since I left school (which is rather a long time ago). 17th Edition, and currently not planning to bother with the 18th. You get to a point in life where hoop jumping becomes tiresome!

My point is this. I occasionally work for a local security company as a sub contractor (usually first fixing CCTV for him) and he FREQUENTLY installs his own electrical points using his totally untrained engineers.

Now this can be extra lighting, sockets, or altering existing installations. I can tell you now, it NEVER complies with regs.

I do not certify (mainly because I just don't do enough sparking these days). Therefore, I usually refuse to do his electrical work.

On the occasions I have done his electrical installations, it is on the provision that he gets the work certified by a third party at the end of the job. He usually then gets more money from the client for this testing..... then NEVER does it.
This might be private work, but it's frequently for the local council.

I try to cover myself by highlighting this work must be certified on my invoices (it's usually only alterations within a room or similar), and also email him and relevant members of his company, reminding them they must certify. But they don't.

I now will not work for him.

My point is, this man, and his (massively untrained) staff frequently break installation regulations and get away with it.
I have known him install fire alarm systems in public buildings that are poorly designed, untested and do not comply in the slightest.

Who cares? Nobody ever pulls him up on it. Unless he is part of a testing body... who is ever going to challenge him?

Yes, if a fire happens or God forbid, someone is injured or killed, he may get caught, but it's a slim 'if'.

Frustrates me. Who can you tell? Who cares?
I anonymously emailed the local building inspector last year regarding a poor fire alarm installation and they did zip.

It's wrong on all levels. Only those willing to pay to be inspected, then get pulled up for poor practices.

I would be interested to know your opinions

Depends what you mean by qualified, a 1 day regulations course does not constitute qualification in my opinion.

 

[Mike Johnson]

The only person/company that will do anything about it would be those that understand the risk and who are liable or stand to loose money due to an incident, this works out to be the insurance company, the owners and unfortunately the local authority would not understand the risk involved, insurance companies have specialist risk analysis agents that inspect these type of things, but do rely on advice from others, we then get back to who is competent to advise, an independent or the installer, vicious circle.

 

[DoubleInsulated]

I agree entirely. A one day course means zip.

If you are talking about me, then I did my original 3/4 years C&G 16th and then upgraded to the 17th.
Done every required course since then.

Did my original 2381 testing etc. I re-did my testing and inspection a few years back (2394 and 2395) because I was getting rusty.

Literally the only one I have not done to date is the 18th.

Just seems a mad system to me. There should be a body you can report rogue installers to.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Trading Standards, but they only investigate if a number of complaints are received.

 

[DoubleInsulated]

I could go out tomorrow, buy everything I need from B&Q, and pretty much rewire a house.
Nobody would check it, nobody is going to know if it's been done to regulation.

Come the time to sell the house, you just declare ignorance, and get the wiring tested by a sparky.
He slates it, that goes on a report and they buy it anyway (or worst case, you have to pay him to fix a few bits).

Systems seems a bit broken in this respect

 

[Mike Johnson]

Its never been correct to become broken. ?

 

[DoubleInsulated]

In my meaningless opinion.... you should have to show qualifications to be allowed to purchased anything but light fittings.
But that ain't going to happen!

 

[HappyHippyDad]

It's not just in the electrical industry this happens, it happens in many other jobs. Society is too large to completely regulate. The main thing is for you personally not to become disheartened by it. You have to stick to doing a good job, not because of any rules or regulations, just because you know you are leaving it safe for the customer. You will feel good about yourself for doing this as you get older.

You personally cannot stop the rogue traders, so it's pointless getting too cross about it. You did the right thing by not working for him any more. I would go and do the 18th if I was you and not let things slip.

We could all go and do something dodgy and probably not get caught, but we generally don't because most of us have morals and realise that someone somewhere along the line is more likely to get hurt if we choose to be dodgy.

 

[LukeD]

Same with mechanics etc . The level of control in this country is pathetic

 

[Dustydazzler]

Dodgy Dave and his DIY fuse box changes and Roger the Rogue builders house Re-wires , keep me in work and busy 4-5 days per week putting their SH!T work right

Infact I would have hardly any work if it wasn't for people regularly doing SH!T wiring

So I DO NOT want the SH!T work to stop , in fact the more SH!T work that goes on the busier I get

So to all the dodgy builders and rough arse sparks out there PLEASE keep throwing in rubbish wiring so I can keep paying my mortgage

 

[Mike Johnson]

I advise everyone to read the "Peter Principle" at least once, if explains everything about incompetence in trades people and those supposedly in charge.

 

[DoubleInsulated]

That fire alarm I reported to the building inspector.... big commercial building (garden centre). He did the most HORRIFIC install I have ever seen.

No design, no testing, huge voids in the sounder coverage, appalling installation practices... but it took 7 months for him to realise that when you did trigger the fire alarm....

.....Nothing happened. No sounders or beacons had been connected.

Took him nearly 2 weeks and 5 men to try and sort it out (and it's still not right). I walked away.

Trouble is, he would immediately point the finger at you if he ever got caught.

Anyway.... old news. Move on.

 

[GBDamo]

My take,

It's similar to the industrial action of the 70's leading to the gutting of the UKs heavy industry.

Knowledgeable people who thought themselves indispensable make life ever more difficult, tying people up in regulation and specification, and become intransigent and belligerent.

Many public bodies have pensioned off these individuals and replaced them with more pliant graduates who are prepared to be more "pragmatic".

Also, where the majority of work was done in house, most is now contracted out.

The problem is now is these green graduates are largely clueless and easily flanneled by smooth talking contractors.

Hence we now get all manner of rubbish installed in public buildings that use to be the gold standard.

Unfortunately, with the advent of RCDs, the shiteness of these jobs is highly unlikely to raise concerns as very few people are electrocuted.

 

[OnlQQker]

 

[Lister1987]

Part of the issue is your shouting in the wrong ears. Fire regulatory reform order compliance Is the responsibility of the local fire and rescue service authority, not council, not LABC and not CIEH/HSE.

Shout in the right ears and you'll get somewhere.

 

[timhoward]

Part of the issue is your shouting in the wrong ears. Fire regulatory reform order compliance Is the responsibility of the local fire and rescue service authority, not council, not LABC and not CIEH/HSE.

Shout in the right ears and you'll get somewhere.

Agree. I have managed to get the local station officer at the fire brigade interested in a couple of truly appalling fire alarms installations before now and follow up has occurred. Anywhere where people sleep get's their ears pricking up very quickly.

 

[DoubleInsulated]

Tried the local fire officer. He directed me to the building inspector ?
Probably because they were building an extension at the time

 

[Vortigern]

Accepted this is the norm SNAFU. Yet I choose to be part of the solution not part of the problem. To achieve this I keep abreast and qualified in best practices and conform to regs/statute. At least I know that one house or office at a time I am doing work that is kosher. As to the rogues, I have long given up decrying the state of some wiring I just get on with it. I don't even bother to tell the client, except in the sparsest terms, what is wrong with the installation, just what needs to be done.

 

[smash_]

Tell the client, I’m sure if they knew that the system wasn’t fit for purpose they’d do something.
Its them paying for it and putting trust in the people who install it.

 

[DoubleInsulated]

He knew the client, and could literally smooth talk himself out of any corner.
He sacked the 2 guys installing the system and totally blamed them. Neither of them were alarm installers, and had been hired with the promise of full trained (which he never gives). Turns over a mental amount of staff because he constantly hires unqualified chumps.

When he does hire guys who know what they are doing, he either upsets them with his bodging, or doesn't pay them. Not a pleasant guy.

Anyway... not much I can do except stay away.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Alarm manufactures live on reputation, they may be interested in your observations, a carefully worded enquiry could being results.

 

[Dustydazzler]

Surely fire alarm systems should be installed and inspected by registered contractors. ?

 

[DoubleInsulated]

Well I turned up to have a look. First thing? The installer guy had over-tightened the mains connector block on the alarm PCB and snapped it off the board.
So, he SOLDERED A 2.5mm T&E to the board PCB tracks directly ??? (got a photo somewhere).

That was bad enough, but then I realised no local isolator. Yep.... directly off a J401 JB on the shop ring main.
So PCB fused at 32A and not on it own dedicated supply. No local keyswitch isolator. That sums it up.

None of the FP earths had been linked at any call point, just snipped off.

Not one call point was at the same height as another. The call points in the warehouse had been 'glued' to the RSJ stanchions using silicon.

Cables were literally clipped every 2 metres. Just thrown over the suspended ceiling in the shop, no containment.

Plastic trunking across the ceilings in offices to smoke detectors. No metal cable clips within.

You could remove literally any smoke head and the system would not flag a fault or missing head.

Stand in the warehouse, trigger the system and you hear nothing. Not even a beacon or two to indicate a fire to the forklift drivers.

Any connections between cables done using plastic connector blocks (usually stuffed in a galv conduit box with no lid because they could not fit it all in).

No design paperwork. No zone plan. No test sheets. No commissioning paperwork.

I could go on.... it was horrific. And he still does it.

 

[Mike Johnson]

All the above should be put in writing, given to the client's director responsible for "Health and Safety" copied to "Trading Standards" and the "Fire Officer" they are then obliged to do something about it before it becomes a major incident, you don't even have to put your name on it, just a concerned electrician will do.

The European way of shrugging the shoulders whilst pursing your lips and blowing has become the norm in the UK over the last few years, perhaps that will change and we will no longer say "not my problem" and walk away leaving a client oblivious to the danger his operatives are in.

 

[GBDamo]

He knew the client, and could literally smooth talk himself out of any corner.
He sacked the 2 guys installing the system and totally blamed them. Neither of them were alarm installers, and had been hired with the promise of full trained (which he never gives). Turns over a mental amount of staff because he constantly hires unqualified chumps.

When he does hire guys who know what they are doing, he either upsets them with his bodging, or doesn't pay them. Not a pleasant guy.

Anyway... not much I can do except stay away.

There's a four letter word that describes that kind of person but I'm too polite to use it?.

 

[GBDamo]

Well I turned up to have a look. First thing? The installer guy had over-tightened the mains connector block on the alarm PCB and snapped it off the board.
So, he SOLDERED A 2.5mm T&E to the board PCB tracks directly ??? (got a photo somewhere).

That was bad enough, but then I realised no local isolator. Yep.... directly off a J401 JB on the shop ring main.
So PCB fused at 32A and not on it own dedicated supply. No local keyswitch isolator. That sums it up.

None of the FP earths had been linked at any call point, just snipped off.

Not one call point was at the same height as another. The call points in the warehouse had been 'glued' to the RSJ stanchions using silicon.

Cables were literally clipped every 2 metres. Just thrown over the suspended ceiling in the shop, no containment.

Plastic trunking across the ceilings in offices to smoke detectors. No metal cable clips within.

You could remove literally any smoke head and the system would not flag a fault or missing head.

Stand in the warehouse, trigger the system and you hear nothing. Not even a beacon or two to indicate a fire to the forklift drivers.

Any connections between cables done using plastic connector blocks (usually stuffed in a galv conduit box with no lid because they could not fit it all in).

No design paperwork. No zone plan. No test sheets. No commissioning paperwork.

I could go on.... it was horrific. And he still does it.

Don't lynch me but is there any requirement for a CPC in a 24V circuit?

Don't do fire alarms, a known unknown.

 

[telectrix]

Don't lynch me but is there any requirement for a CPC in a 24V circuit?

Don't do fire alarms, a known unknown.

cpc's are always connected i fire alarms. detector bases even have a terminal for connection. not sure what funnction it serves regarding the alarm.

 

[DoubleInsulated]

I don't think the earth is a requirement, but to my mind, it's a 'correct installation' thing.
How long does it take really to sleeve and tidy up the earth.

The bigger issue was that the clump handed snipping of the earth had lead to damaging the cores. Snipping the earth off flush with the end of the FP outer sheath, left the sharp earth between the cores.

 

[telectrix]

thing is, with FP200, the cpc is useless for stripping off the sheath, so even a plumber or a builder would realise that it had an alternative purpose.

 

[DoubleInsulated]

Yes well they are lucky they had the earth, as they used it in a few places to keep the loop going because somehow they had damaged one of the cores.
I have to find these pictures I took.
I opened a call point to find one core and the earth going into the call point - the other core was snipped off ?