Lighting circuit what to do

[haptism]

This is a new one on me and not so sure how to tackle it. The customer is extending 3 bedrooms, ive quoted to install new lighting circuit for these rooms.

The existing circuit for the upstairs lighting does not have an earth and due to its routing it will need extending to fit round the shape of the new rooms. This existing circuit is supplying j.b's in the loft that spider to the bathroom, hall, and another bedroom; the customer will not agree to have these rooms rewired in t&e as it means making holes in the ceilings ! (----)

If I bring in a new feed to the existing J'bs how do I stand on reconnecting the existing circuits that dont have a cpc ?? Customer is adamant he dont want existing rewired but he wants the lights back on, I will IR each of these existing lighting circuits, if they pass I was thinking to make a note on the EIC that customer refuses rewire, and then reconnect.

 

[buzzlightyear]

just put a new circuit to new area ,on the test cert put existing circuit needs rewire ,the end.

 

[haptism]

just put a new circuit to new area ,on the test cert put existing circuit needs rewire ,the end.

Yeh Buzz that would be functional but aint there a caveat in the regs that a new circuit should be sound "all the way round" so to speak.
[automerge]1568146967[/automerge]

just put a new circuit to new area ,on the test cert put existing circuit needs rewire ,the end.

Just re-read that, yeh I see what you mean. If the customer don't agree to rewire then can I do what I said in original post, thanks.

 

[buzzlightyear]

you can not put gun to a customers head if they dont want it done .when you quote for a job tell them what you are going to do.

 

[Andy78]

Agree with Buzz. All your work must be compliant so a new circuit for your work would be the best way. Cite 132.16 to back yourself up.
Also tell them their 50+ year old wiring is due for a rewire when they get round to it.

 

[buzzlightyear]

Also tell them their 50+ year old wiring is due for a rewire when they get round to it

when the most of the house burns down and the extension still standing,lol.

 

[littlespark]

Make sure they don’t want any metal switches or fittings on their unearthed lighting circuits

 

[haptism]

Ive really recommended a rewire of existing lighting and switch drops but he's not having it full stop, don't know why but hes a problem customer who wont listen. Anyway the existing feed to the loft needs extending to get the lights back on as the builder cut the cable when he demolished the bedrooms. I was not certain on reconnecting this to the existing lights and switches that don't have an earth. Once ive convinced myself what to do I will get customer to sign a disclaimer and reconnect. The circuit is rcd'd and all class 2 at least.

 

[Andy78]

Ive really recommended a rewire of existing lighting and switch drops but he's not having it full stop, don't know why but hes a problem customer who wont listen. Anyway the existing feed to the loft needs extending to get the lights back on as the builder cut the cable when he demolished the bedrooms. I was not certain on reconnecting this to the existing lights and switches that don't have an earth. Once ive convinced myself what to do I will get customer to sign a disclaimer and reconnect. The circuit is rcd'd and all class 2 at least.

Might be one worth swerving if they already a problem.

 

[Megawatt]

This is a new one on me and not so sure how to tackle it. The customer is extending 3 bedrooms, ive quoted to install new lighting circuit for these rooms.

The existing circuit for the upstairs lighting does not have an earth and due to its routing it will need extending to fit round the shape of the new rooms. This existing circuit is supplying j.b's in the loft that spider to the bathroom, hall, and another bedroom; the customer will not agree to have these rooms rewired in t&e as it means making holes in the ceilings ! (----)

If I bring in a new feed to the existing J'bs how do I stand on reconnecting the existing circuits that dont have a cpc ?? Customer is adamant he dont want existing rewired but he wants the lights back on, I will IR each of these existing lighting circuits, if they pass I was thinking to make a note on the EIC that customer refuses rewire, and then reconnect.

Baptism if they keep acting like that give them a ridiculous price and see if they go for it and tell them you have rules you have to go by. If that doesn’t do it walk away

 

[Deleted account]

Ive really recommended a rewire of existing lighting and switch drops but he's not having it full stop, don't know why but hes a problem customer who wont listen. Anyway the existing feed to the loft needs extending to get the lights back on as the builder cut the cable when he demolished the bedrooms. I was not certain on reconnecting this to the existing lights and switches that don't have an earth. Once ive convinced myself what to do I will get customer to sign a disclaimer and reconnect. The circuit is rcd'd and all class 2 at least.

Give quote to do what you feel is right. If he doesn’t agree walk away.

EDIT: beat me to it megawatt

 

[haptism]

Yeh good points there, I do need to charge more anyway.

 

[buzzlightyear]

I was not certain on reconnecting this to the existing lights and switches that don't have an earth

me I would tell the builder to get his own spark in to reconnect .are you working for the builder or the customer ?.

 

[haptism]

me I would tell the builder to get his own spark in to reconnect .are you working for the builder or the customer ?.

For the customer

 

[buzzlightyear]

For the customer

tell the customer that the builder to sort what needs reconnecting .you are going to contract to the customer not the builder, if not walk.

 

[haptism]

Think I sleep on it and make decision tomorrow, thanks all its been an eye opener !

 

[buzzlightyear]

thanks all its been an eye opener

yeah but which one ,best to sleep on it ,right or left.lol.

 

[haptism]

yeah but which one ,best to sleep on it ,right or left.lol.

don't tell me that ffs

 

[westward10]

The absence of a cpc means ADS is not complied with and this part of the installation is not Class II no matter what accessories are fitted as general purpose accessories are not Class II. The inclusion of an rcd is irrelevant. A disclaimer would hold little water as your client is probably signing something to which he/she has no understanding of.

 

[haptism]

The absence of a cpc means ADS is not complied with and this part of the installation is not Class II no matter what accessories are fitted as general purpose accessories are not Class II. The inclusion of an rcd is irrelevant. A disclaimer would hold little water as your client is probably signing something to which he/she has no understanding of.

Thanks for the info, although that part of the installation I will not touch. Im concerned with running a new supply (which will have a cpc) to the existing lighting jb which serves the existing lights and switches. Is this recommended or not was the reason for the post.

 

[Andy78]

Thanks for the info, although that part of the installation I will not touch. Im concerned with running a new supply (which will have a cpc) to the existing lighting jb which serves the existing lights and switches. Is this recommended or not was the reason for the post.

No. Every part of the job that you include on the cert should be new wiring if you want to keep your nose clean. You can't use any part of the older wiring along any part of the circuit. New from start to finish. You will have created a new circuit for the rooms in question.

If the customer won't have that then toodle pip.

 

[westward10]

So your new cable will power the existing part of the circuit then also supply new parts of the circuit.

 

[haptism]

So your new cable will power the existing part of the circuit then also supply new parts of the circuit.

No there will be a new circuit for the new rooms, and I will remove the existing circuitry for these rooms from the existing JB.

The circuit that was feeding the upstairs lighting was chopped by the builder when he demolished the rooms and customer wants it reconnected as now there is no lights upstairs. So reconnecting to a JB in loft (with new t&e) that spiders to each room (not the new ones) in cable without cpc is what im considering.
[automerge]1568153046[/automerge]
Basically I wanna bring a new feed (t&e) to the loft JB. None of the existing outgoing wiring from this jb has cpc's.

 

[johnduffell]

you can repair like for like to old versions of the regs, but honestly however stubborn this guy is, once 2 or 3 professional sparks tell him he needs a rewire not a repair maybe he'll realise it's not a choice. "It's been fine for 50 years why change it" might take a while to convince, but with no lights he'll have plenty of time to think about it in the dark!

 

[buzzlightyear]

recommended or not was the reason for the post.

no use a a new circuit and explain to the customer why .do not under circumstances change any other circuit .

 

[pirate]

If the customer won't listen to reason, walk away.
If he thinks you are trying to rip him off, walk away.
If he is trying to cut cost to the minimum, walk away.
If you are unhappy with the job he wants you to do, walk away.
Let him get a bottom-feeder in, and walk away.
When he pleads with you to come back and sort his mess, walk away.
...and sleep soundly!

 

[Markyd]

As soon as you run a new feed for old circuits you are responsible for it.......... walk

 

[Grant1987]

As soon as you run a new feed for old circuits you are responsible for it.......... walk

If I were you man up and tell him that it needs a complete Rewire and give price to reflect your hard work in doing so. If he doesn’t agree then tell him you can’t do the work because you don’t want to have a guilty conscience in doing something that is completely wrong and you will be liable for. You’ll be the one to blame if something went wrong start from scratch so you know it’s all safe and complient ?

 

[davesparks]

you can repair like for like to old versions of the regs,

I'm not aware of this regulation, can you elaborate on this?

 

[Pete999]

If the customer won't listen to reason, walk away.
If he thinks you are trying to rip him off, walk away.
If he is trying to cut cost to the minimum, walk away.
If you are unhappy with the job he wants you to do, walk away.
Let him get a bottom-feeder in, and walk away.
When he pleads with you to come back and sort his mess, walk away.
...and sleep soundly!

So in essence "Walk away" is that what you are saying Pirate? lol, it's what I would do

 

[Midwest]

Why not give him a copy of Electrical Safety First Best Practise Guide 1 (to reinforce your advice);

https://www.electricalsafetyfirst.org.uk/media/1203/best-practice-guide-1-issue-3.pdf

Page 11 gives guidance on connecting existing light circuits, without a cpc. You will note the caveat at indent for domestic or similar premises at 10.7.

 

[telectrix]

1. run a new circuit for the new lights. don't touch the old, broken circuit.
2. tell builder to repair the circuit he's cut.
3. EIC for new circuit, with comment that existing circuit needs rewiring.

 

[Grant1987]

Why not give him a copy of Electrical Safety First Best Practise Guide 1 (to reinforce your advice);

https://www.electricalsafetyfirst.org.uk/media/1203/best-practice-guide-1-issue-3.pdf

Page 11 gives guidance on connecting existing light circuits, without a cpc. You will note the caveat at indent for domestic or similar premises at 10.7.

First time I’ve seen this guideline on electrical installations looks very good and will learn from it. I’ve just scanned through it and just not sure on couple things sure I’ll have more questions when I read through it properly. I always tell customers that they need Rcd protection especially with bathroom lighting circuits and also sockets that have potential to be used for outdoor purposes which most people tend to plug in extension lead and use pressure washer, hedge trimmer, lawn mower etc yet the guideline on this page states you don’t necessarily need a board change, Rcd protection. I would disagree and say that you do need to I’m basing this on domestic not commercial and industrial as I understand a lot of machinery does not require Rcd protection one of my main priorities when doing work is that consumer unit is up to standard and Rcd protection is provided as additional protection

 

[GBDamo]

1. run a new circuit for the new lights. don't touch the old, broken circuit.
2. tell builder to repair the circuit he's cut.
3. EIC for new circuit, with comment that existing circuit needs rewiring.

Run the new circuit to a JB next to the old to supply the new lights, complete and cert. Take pictures of how you left it.

Tell customer you're having nothing to do with the old as it's non-compliant and potentiality unsafe and under no circumstances could you condone taking a feed from the new JB to the old JB.

 

[Midwest]

First time I’ve seen this guideline on electrical installations looks very good and will learn from it. I’ve just scanned through it and just not sure on couple things sure I’ll have more questions when I read through it properly. I always tell customers that they need Rcd protection especially with bathroom lighting circuits and also sockets that have potential to be used for outdoor purposes which most people tend to plug in extension lead and use pressure washer, hedge trimmer, lawn mower etc yet the guideline on this page states you don’t necessarily need a board change, Rcd protection. I would disagree and say that you do need to I’m basing this on domestic not commercial and industrial as I understand a lot of machinery does not require Rcd protection one of my main priorities when doing work is that consumer unit is up to standard and Rcd protection is provided as additional protection

This best practice guide, probably needs an update.

I need to read it perhaps. I don’t think you can advise a customer that a CU change is required, because the existing doesn’t meet existing regs, if that’s what your saying?

If a CU hasn’t additional protection, it does not mean it’s not suitable for continued service.

 

[telectrix]

This best practice guide, probably needs an update.

I need to read it perhaps. I don’t think you can advise a customer that a CU change is required, because the existing doesn’t meet existing regs, if that’s what your saying?

If a CU hasn’t additional protection, it does not mean it’s not suitable for continued service.

thing is, any work that you do needs to comply with current regs, so if you have a CU that is fit for continued use, but does not provide the protection that your new work requires ( e.g. RCD for bathroom/lighting/buried cables in walls, then you have to provide that RCD protection, either by a standalone RCD just to cover your work, or by upgrading CU.

the latter option may cost more, but will make the whole installation safer.

 

[Midwest]

thing is, any work that you do needs to comply with current regs, so if you have a CU that is fit for continued use, but does not provide the protection that your new work requires ( e.g. RCD for bathroom/lighting/buried cables in walls, then you have to provide that RCD protection, either by a standalone RCD just to cover your work, or by upgrading CU.

the latter option may cost more, but will make the whole installation safer.

Yep I do know any new work needs to comply; but I'm just wondering if @Grant1987 is suggesting an existing CU needs updating for an existing install, albeit it would make it safer.

 

[Toneyz]

I think that we are detracting regarding the RCD protection and will have to assume that this is complied with for the new part of the installation. Has the OP checked to see if all the lights are standard pendants and batton holders (ie. no class 1 fittings), the switch back boxes are the ones with plastic lugs and there are no metal switch plates?

 

[telectrix]

I think that we are detracting regarding the RCD protection and will have to assume that this is complied with for the new part of the installation. Has the OP checked to see if all the lights are standard pendants and batton holders (ie. no class 1 fittings), the switch back boxes are the ones with plastic lugs and there are no metal switch plates?

but what have class 2 fittings got to do with RCD protection? RCDs are for additional,protection. in old speak, protection against direct contact with live parts.

 

[haptism]

I think that we are detracting regarding the RCD protection and will have to assume that this is complied with for the new part of the installation. Has the OP checked to see if all the lights are standard pendants and batton holders (ie. no class 1 fittings), the switch back boxes are the ones with plastic lugs and there are no metal switch plates?

Was there earlier, had a talk and now rewiring most of the lighting bar (some) of the switchdrops. The one circuit n the bedroom he refusing to rewire does have a standard pendant and switch, and will put nylon 3.5's in switch. I will make a note on EIC about this; not much else I can do, except walk.

 

[Toneyz]

but what have class 2 fittings got to do with RCD protection? RCDs are for additional,protection. in old speak, protection against direct contact with live parts.

The OP posted in post No.8 that the circuit had RCD protection the post was about the omission of a CPC in the existing lighting circuit.

 

[Grant1987]

Yep I do know any new work needs to comply; but I'm just wondering if @Grant1987 is suggesting an existing CU needs updating for an existing install, albeit it would make it safer.

I’m saying that when I go to property to do work which is why I’m there in first instance if you existing

Yep I do know any new work needs to comply; but I'm just wondering if @Grant1987 is suggesting an existing CU needs updating for an existing install, albeit it would make it safer.

sorry for delayed reply all I’m saying is that when I go to customers property before I carry out work on circuits involved I tell them that because the existing consumer unit does not provide additional protection by way of Rcd then I would need to cover my work by installing one. If the consumer unit is an old one with bs 3036 semi enclosed then I recommend a board change, or even if they have the plug in mcbs which I thought were non compliant due to breaking capacities? I’m not an expert but here to learn and give my opinion I’m probably over cautious with my work but like to clarify with customer before carrying out any work and the costs involved.

 

[Deleted account]

I’m saying that when I go to property to do work which is why I’m there in first instance if you existing

sorry for delayed reply all I’m saying is that when I go to customers property before I carry out work on circuits involved I tell them that because the existing consumer unit does not provide additional protection by way of Rcd then I would need to cover my work by installing one. If the consumer unit is an old one with bs 3036 semi enclosed then I recommend a board change, or even if they have the plug in mcbs which I thought were non compliant due to breaking capacities? I’m not an expert but here to learn and give my opinion I’m probably over cautious with my work but like to clarify with customer before carrying out any work and the costs involved.

It’s all in the wording.

Clarify to the customer that:

“You need a surtain amount of protection to do a job.”

“At present your installation does not have that protection.”

Then you would go on to say the best means to achieve this protection

“ fitting a new upgraded CU would give you the required protection to do the job.”

Never say to the customer your rewritable fuse board needs replacing because it’s not up to current regs. That is not true. It’s possibly fine and can continue to be used.

It’s just to achieve the required protection on the work your doing that requires an upgrade.

you are not wrong. It’s just you must clarify to the customer clearly why you are recommending a CU upgrade.

 

[Grant1987]

It’s all in the wording.

Clarify to the customer that:

“You need a surtain amount of protection to do a job.”

“At present your installation does not have that protection.”

Then you would go on to say the best means to achieve this protection

“ fitting a new upgraded CU would give you the required protection to do the job.”

Never say to the customer your rewritable fuse board needs replacing because it’s not up to current regs. That is not true. It’s possibly fine and can continue to be used.

It’s just to achieve the required protection on the work your doing that requires an upgrade.

you are not wrong. It’s just you must clarify to the customer clearly why you are recommending a CU upgrade.

Yes you’re wording is far better than mine. I’m useless on here with my way of explaining things. All that you’re saying here is exactly what I say to my customers which in simple terms your electrical installation is not up to current standards I recommend you bring them up to standard. I don’t just mean with old rewireable fuse boards but the whole electrics in the property I’ll look at everything and don’t like to leave without telling them what is not compliant with current regs regardless of I’m working on that particular circuit things like cooker points over the cooker or socket outlets over draining board. Knowing that I’m the last electrician in that property I like to make sure that I explain all the issues there

 

[Midwest]

What’s wrong with a socket over a draining board

Actually as I recall, as long as it’s 300mm from the sink edge, it’s fine apparently.

When I did small jobs, most of mine were, I did the install to the latest regs. Much as I would like them to have a rewire or CU replacement, that’s down to the customers decision.

 

[Trains]

Wonder if the OP has checked to see if the switch drops are in metal conduit - very typical of an era when no CPC's were in lighting circuits?

 

[Deleted account]

What’s wrong with a socket over a draining board

Actually as I recall, as long as it’s 300mm from the sink edge, it’s fine apparently.

When I did small jobs, most of mine were, I did the install to the latest regs. Much as I would like them to have a rewire or CU replacement, that’s down to the customers decision.

The 300 mm is guidance only. I do stick to the 300mm but in a small kitchen where space is not good, if I have to, I alter the distance to 150 mm.

Agree CU change is down to the customer, but if adding to a socket or lighting circuit the customer must have the RCDprotection as is required by whatever means, otherwise I cannot do the job.
[automerge]1568881346[/automerge]

Yes you’re wording is far better than mine. I’m useless on here with my way of explaining things. All that you’re saying here is exactly what I say to my customers which in simple terms your electrical installation is not up to current standards I recommend you bring them up to standard. I don’t just mean with old rewireable fuse boards but the whole electrics in the property I’ll look at everything and don’t like to leave without telling them what is not compliant with current regs regardless of I’m working on that particular circuit things like cooker points over the cooker or socket outlets over draining board. Knowing that I’m the last electrician in that property I like to make sure that I explain all the issues there

I totally get you with regard to wording.

It’s taken along time for me to get it right. Literally decades.

I’m naturally brilliant at maths , gut absolutely rubbish in my English skills.

Bullet points.

Spaces.

Paragraphs.

That’s how I can get what I mean to say on paper.

Also when I started writing quotes I had to get it right out of nessecity. I would get my wife to check them all. Practice made me able to do this.

I had a 3 hour written exam couple of years ago. I was bricking it. I did the above and passed . Bering in mind it has a 60% fail rate.
I was prouder with myself for actually being able to write what I meant than the content.
I always know the answers but finger it difficult to write it.

 

[Midwest]

The 300 mm is guidance only. I do stick to the 300mm but in a small kitchen where space is not good, if I have to, I alter the distance to 150 mm

I should add, that the guidance now is 300mm from the sink ‘bowl’, not the edge of the drainer bit, like I used to think.

 

[Deleted account]

I should add, that the guidance now is 300mm from the sink ‘bowl’, not the edge of the drainer bit, like I used to think.

That I didn’t know.

 

[Midwest]

That I didn’t know.

Apparently its in the 2019 NHBC guidance, and blue OSG, neither of which I have access to.